Episode 2: The Medicine of Friendship

What if one of the greatest medicines available to men is friendship?

In this episode of the Men's Healing Network Podcast, host Vincent Perez is joined by Leo Lopez of the National Compadres Network and his lifelong friend Miguel Chuca. Together, they explore how decades of friendship, cultural traditions, fatherhood, and community have shaped their understanding of what it means to heal as men.

The conversation reflects on the fathers and elders who modeled both strength and imperfection, the transformative power of men's circles, and the importance of creating spaces where men can be vulnerable, emotionally honest, and fully seen. Leo and Miguel also discuss raising children in a changing world, balancing work and family, and why healing isn't something we do alone—it happens in relationship.

At its heart, this episode is a reminder that authentic friendship isn't just companionship. It's medicine.

In this episode, you'll hear about:

• The role of lifelong friendship in men's healing
• Lessons inherited from fathers, grandfathers, and elders
• Why culturally rooted men's circles create powerful opportunities for transformation
• Emotional vulnerability and becoming a "safe man" for family and friends
• The importance of intergenerational relationships
• Balancing work, partnership, and fatherhood
• Passing wisdom and healing to the next generation

About the Host
Vincent Perez is a cultural strategist, facilitator, and founder of the Men's Healing Network. His work helps individuals and organizations cultivate healing-centered leadership, authentic relationships, and communities rooted in dignity, belonging, and connection.

Produced by
Tom Keppeler

Marketing & Audience Development
Dee Enriquez

The Men's Healing Network Podcast is made possible in part through the support of Choice Regional Health Network.

To learn more about the Men's Healing Network, upcoming circles, and events, visit MHN.life.

Transcript

Vincent Perez: 0:05

Blessings all. My name is Vincent Perez and this is the Men's Healing Network Podcast. This is a space where men come together in honest conversation about healing, purpose and what it means to grow in our fullest humanity. Each episode begins with an invitation. I invite one man into the circle, and he in turn invites another man whose life and work has impacted him. Together, the three of us sit in conversation, sharing stories, experiences, and reflections on the path of men's healing. Today I joined Leo Lopez, who I invited into the circle. And Miguel or Mike Chuca, whom Leo invited to join us. Leo serves as Director of Special Projects and Programs at the National Compadres Network, where he helps advance healing and equity through relationship centered community informed work. With more than 30 years of leadership across child welfare education and partnerships with tribal nations, Leo brings a deep commitment to family, culture, and the wellbeing of future generations. He is also a husband, father, and grandfather. Miguel began his career in education as a classroom teacher and has spent decades serving students, educators, and communities through leadership and curriculum STEM, instructional technology and innovation. Today, he leads work across assessment, learning systems, and instructional development, while also supporting his community as a business owner and mentor. He's a devoted husband and father, grounded in service and lifelong learning. In this conversation, we explore man's healing through the lens of brotherhood, culture, and community. Reflection on the influence of fathers and elders, the responsibility to guide the next generation, and the importance of creating spaces where men can feel seen, supported, and connected. Let's enter this circle. I am so grateful, uh, Leo and Mike, that you have chosen to come on the Men's Healing Network podcast. Uh, Leo I first met you at the National Compadres Network, down in California. It was such a beautiful circle, 40 men three days. Uh, thecal Sweat lodge ceremony really helped, orient me and kind of ground me and mostly that, I wasn't alone. That's what I felt. And so that's my invitation, uh, to hear more about you and your work, with the National Compadres Network. But I'd like you to also, uh, share your invitation, with Mike. Could you tell us a little about why you chose, chose Mike?

Leo Lopez: 2:50

Yeah. Thank you Vicente. And, as you mentioned, we first met, at the annual Retiro that the National Compadres Network hosts. And, it was an honor and a pleasure to be there with you and the other, you know, about 40 men. Right. I am a, a member of the National Compadres Network and also, an individual person, right? First and foremost, a human being, A father, a husband, a brother and a son. And so, I thank you for allowing me to be here and then to, invite, a good friend of mine, someone that you know, I appreciate is a good friend of mine. We've known each other for a very long time. I say we were young, young kids at the time when we first met, but I'd like to introduce to you, uh, Mike Miguel Chuca, who's also here with us today.

Vincent Perez: 3:34

And why? Why did you choose Mike?

Leo Lopez: 3:37

I, I chose Mike because he and I go back a long ways. We were, we were teenagers in all aspects. Attending the University of Texas at that time called University of Texas, Pan American in Edinburg, Texas in the Rio Grande Valley. Mike came from the El Paso area. I had come from the state of Washington. Both of our families are from from Texas, or northern Mexico. That's how long I've known Mike, and I've always respected him, I grew up with him, when we were young teenagers, and then into, young men, and now middle aged men at this point. And so it's that longstanding relationship that we have. I know he'll share a little bit more about his relationship with me. But it wasn't too long ago when we were actually, going to Retiro that he and I had a very good conversation about how amazing it was that after so many years, after leaving the University of Texas Pan American, going separate ways, but that we've always stayed connected. The reason for that is just because of the true friendship that we have, not only as individuals, but as men. And the shared history and stories that we have about, becoming men, being men, and, growing as older men now.

Vincent Perez: 4:44

Thank you so much. You know, I think that's really important to emphasize these connections and celebrate them. So, Mike, anything you wanna say about yourself and what, and, and your connection to Leo?

Miguel Chuca: 4:54

Well, yeah, just a little bit about by myself. I, I actually grew up in a small town, uh, called Fabens, Texas, uh, which is El Paso, El Paso area. Know, when I say El Paso, a lot of people think that I was, that I grew up in a, in a big city. But Fabens, Texas is totally different. It's a small town. Probably we would probably only go maybe once a once a week to Juarez or El Paso. Growing up in that small town community is totally different than the big city. From there I ended up moving to, to University of Texas, Pan American. That's where I met Leo, and the first time I met him, we had a lot of things in common. It's crazy because we ended up probably being there for one year at that university during that time. But yet we kept up with each other. We kept up talking to each other, finding out how we're doing, and he gets married, I get married, he has kids. I have kids. And we were able to share a lot of those experiences together. Knowing that, we, are far away from each other, we would always find a way to like, Hey, hey, let's, you know I'm gonna be in the valley. So he has more family than I do here in, in the Batalion area. So he would say, I'm gonna be there so I will make sure that we will go visit him. That relationship that we've had. It's a beautiful relationship. I feel that, we were able to see our kids grow up, and it's still seeing some of our younger kids growing up and we always share all the things that we go through, as far as like as young men, like you mentioned, from there on middle and then of course now at, you know, 50 years old. But that's pretty much how I got to meet him and he's helped me a lot to be able to take for example, he took me to Retiro many years ago, and then I started going again because I felt that's something that was important for me. And because of that, we've been able to, communicate and see our family, grow up and us grow up as well as men.

Vincent Perez: 6:38

Thank you. I really appreciate they saying us grow up. Right. That's a long friendship. That's a long connection. And as we focus really on what it means to, to be a man, in this modern world, I imagine there was some healing that happened along the way and how you even shared in that. Leo, I'll start with you. The big question we're asking is like, what is men's healing? What does that mean to you, especially in context of all of your service with the National Compadres network.

Leo Lopez: 7:04

I was very fortunate. I, first and foremost, I wanna, shout out to my own father, Leonel Lopez, who was a great father. Very involved in everything that we did, and supported us as, as we were growing. I come from a family of six, there's six siblings. We grew up as as migrant farm workers. So we spent a lot of time together, working in the fields, in orchards. In the state of Washington and, when you spend a lot of time together, you get to, really get to know each other very, very well. Just like any other family, even though you grow up in the same home, but when you're working side by side with each other, it's, it makes definitely a difference, as well as just being in the same home. I wanna start by acknowledging my father first and foremost, because he did instill in me, things that I, still carry with me today. So when I, when I think about men's healing, I think about my father, and the things that he did, to teach in his way, what it meant to be, a father, not only as a provider, but also as a person who cares and loves, , those around him in particular, his family. And so some examples of that are, to be with your family, but not just be with them, but be involved with them not just providing for them and ensuring that they have the basic needs that they need, but also being involved in caring about what they do, what they're involved in, involved in their education. And all those meaningful things that, help, , us grow, become comfortable with who we are as ourselves, and hopefully expand from there. And so that's, so when I think of men's healing, I try to incorporate all those things as well as other things that I learned from other folks, including Mike, you know, that's why I have him here. And I asked him to join me and I'm just, thankful that he did. And so I was surrounded not only by my father, but a lot of great, tios, you know, uncles. My father, my tios, you know, the other men that I were, that I was around with were, were definitely not perfect. But they were perfect enough for me. Reminded me of, looking at things that they had gone through and try not to repeat some of those things that, they had experience with. What we now call lived experience, right? And so I was very fortunate as well to to have, lived with within proximity of my maternal grandfather, who was also a great man, to me, again, not perfect, but perfect enough. And so when I think of men's healing, I, I take all those. Memories and experiences that I had with them, and try to utilize that in, in my own decision making. When I've gone through, certain things, as we all do, when we're, maturing, evolving and living our day-to-day lives.

Vincent Perez: 9:35

Thank you. Really those models I hear. Right. How about, how about for you, Mike? What does men's healing mean to you?

Miguel Chuca: 9:41

Yeah, I wanna piggyback on, on what Leo mentioned about experiences. I, I also had a, a great father, but unfortunately my father, he did have a couple of, personal issues. He was an alcoholic. But even though he was an alcoholic, he was my beauty and my beast a beautiful man when he was sober and sometimes, you know, not so good when he was drunk. But one of the things that he always showed was corazon, he always showed love for me. And that's one thing that, I picked up a lot of things that he, showed me. Unfortunately, a lot of, experiences that I had when I was growing up were not so good. As a matter of fact, , some of our environment there was not to ever go to college or, even graduate from high school. So, you know, we had a lot of bad experiences, or at least I did when I was growing up. One of my brothers ended up getting into trouble. Both of my, both of them actually. So I was kind of following the same pathways as … as they were. As I got older, in high school and going into college, I feel that I had a lot of, a lot of anger. I feel like I had a lot of, misconceptions. A lot of my ways were so totally different, and I see that with a lot of kids nowadays and a lot of young people, where if you look at 'em bad, they tell you what are you looking at, right? For me, man's healing is, making sure that you look at the experiences that you have. And that doesn't mean that you have to be set that way. You need to make sure that you have a, that growth mindset that you can change, and even if, you'll notice with the older men, they start thinking that way, but when they're younger, we gotta get them at that age. Right? So, one of the fortunate things for me was that, I was able to get out of that environment. Come into college and, start growing that way. So for me, man's healing is to make sure that you understand that your experiences that you have, don't have to be that way. And, be open-minded about being able to make a change. Good example is if your mindset is, that you're thinking about something negative, try to make sure that do that. thinking of your thinking, Finding out why you're thinking that way, you know that, the cognition piece. Because why are we thinking that way? Because if you keep on thinking that way, that's where your behavior starts coming up, right? You start acting that way, and then once you start acting that way, habits become really bad. So every time that I feel that I'm, thinking about something or I'm, whether it's positive or negative, I always go back and review it myself. I talk to myself, I ask myself. What is this going, how is this gonna help me? How is this gonna help my family? Am I being a good example for my son? So to me, men's healing is again, looking at what you're thinking about how you're behaving. Is what you're thinking about? The same thing is that you're behaving. And then of course the last thing is, of course the actions that you continue doing, right? Because if you might be doing bad behaviors, but, hopefully you could change 'em, you know? God has given us the, the ability to be able to make those changes as as needed. And like Leo was saying, we grew up with that environment or I did right. But I also picked up on a lot of positive things from my family. And with those, I take with me. And even though I picked up a lot of positive things, I feel that I still carry a lot of those experiences. You always have to go back and start thinking about, am I going on the wrong, on the wrong turn? Because of those experiences, you have to always keep on thinking about making sure that you make the right choices as you go on. So to me, that's pretty much men's healing for me. Always be looking at what, or thinking about what you're doing and going back and reviewing, every single day. For me at least, because I wanna make sure that I'm the right example for my kids.

Vincent Perez: 13:02

Thank you. You know, I hear in your answer, I think of like a sifting, you're kind of shaking out and so what falls through what you want to keep, what you wanna let go. It's actually a question I've asked young men for a long time. Like, of all the men in your life, what are the things you want to emulate? I want to be like that. What are the things you don't want you, like, I want, I don't want that from my family. And then what's gonna be even new? What's a whole new approach way, that's, that hasn't even been in your family. And so taking the time to kinda like move back and see what's there is a skill, I think is what you're saying. I'm wondering, how you've been influenced by that. And in particular, what I found at the Retiro being witnessed by other men and how that kind of shifted things for me. One, like I said, that I wasn't alone. But how similar other, other men's experiences were too. And then if I don't reach out, if I don't share, like I, I'm just in this little world. And so I'm curious for you, what has it been like to be witnessed by each other, by other men? How has that shaped or changed you? Leo?

Leo Lopez: 14:14

The being in a circulo, powerful medicine, especially, when it is a culturally rooted healing circulo, uh, which we all experience when we attend, the annual Retiro, and witness firsthand, the sharing that goes on, the very personal, that are shared and how that has, impacted that individual person who's sharing. And when you're sitting there listening to those stories, at least for me, it becomes very healing. Um, healing because I can relate a lot of times to, what they're sharing may not necessarily be the exact same thing. But you know enough where you truly do understand, what they had experienced, and what it meant to them. I think about, my experiences and I'm like, I can relate to that. Um, and I know what it feels like. I can see, the pride, right? When it's a beautiful story being shared and the accomplishments mean, that, that were completed. And then I can also feel, empathetically, the hurt, that is sometimes shared, and everything in between. Right? You have, a circle of man coming together, being vulnerable with each other, wherever they're coming from. Or have that space where, they feel safe enough that they can share in a way that, isn't influenced by other factors. For example, being, with each other, perhaps maybe drinking for example, and, and not having, that as part of the process. And also being able to relate to a lot of the men that participate because they come from one similar ethnic background, a similar upbringing, and or, just similar, lived experiences that, that have happened in the course of their lives. It becomes , a culturally. rooted healing experience. when we think about that, that's men's healing. That's part of men's healing. I can't stress enough how important it is that, those spaces sometimes don't always exist. For men such as, ourselves and others. And we know there's a lot of, we know there's a lot of brothers out there, right? Nephews. Tios, Abuelos, that have never had that opportunity. So they keep everything in. And we see those things play out in different ways. I can't help but think of what, my brother Mike was sharing, of his experience. And sometimes, when there's not a positive outlet, unfortunately there's a different outlet, right? That may not be the most healthiest, one. And so you gravitate to that because that's all you have. And that's just my thought about, how the Circulos are helpful. And again, as we say, It's powerful medicina; powerful medicine.

Vincent Perez: 16:37

Mike, I'm wondering if you want to add onto that, but also you're naming this vulnerability. This like capacity to share emotion outside of, boozing it up.'cause I, think even I look at my own life, like from my family, like Mi'jo, I love you. When he's, When he's got that liquor in him, right? And so, how do we invite this kind of emotional world that we have, this vast emotional world. But we don't really get to, there's not like you're saying, like not a lot of space for that except for through these other, vices, really. Right? So I'm curious, Mike, what does it mean for you for men's emotional lives to grow and, and, the spaces

Miguel Chuca: 17:15

That's a very good point. We've always, we're, we were always taught to be, you know, to be strong and, not cry and, and I think that's one of the biggest positives that I did get from my dad actually. That, even though he was drunk or whatever, he'd always be very emotional, very, he was able to say that, I love you. I know he meant it right. He showed by example, that he did love me and he loved his other people, his nephews and other kids, and all that stuff. But one, one of the things is that, the fact that we don't have that environment, that's why I do like the Circulo,, because I see grown men, right? Grown men, tough, they've had a tough life and they're able to just be vulnerable and say what they need to say. you see them afterwards when you see them walking down the hallway or you see them eating lunch and they feel like you could see that, 'cause they talk about the Corazon, right, you could see that they feel more relaxed, that happened to me as well by the way, when I go through the Circulo as well. Not only does that make me feel more comfortable, being able to express what I need to express, but be able to see, because I see them be able to express in. And then sometimes they, you say, man, I had a tough life, and then you go back and see some of their lives and you're like, man, my life was not tough at all. And now you're there for them as well. Men's healing is also to make sure that you're there for somebody else because sometimes, you need to, receive, right? Receive as much as you can to provide that, comfort and get that out, from them as well. And this is something that I've always asked, how do we continue doing this? I think it's more of a, it could be also a culture thing. Where, we don't show that emotional piece as well, or receive that emotional intelligence. I have even friends that if you start sharing anything personal that might be a, problem or an issue or something that you're going through, they'll change the subject. They don't wanna hear you speak how you're feeling. They ask you how you're doing, but they don't really want to know how you're doing. And how do we actually, uh, allow ourselves to be able to really see how they're doing? I mean, think about it. When's the last time a friend called you just to see how you're doing? You'll usually have a phone call. Hey, how are you doing? And then they can't wait for you to finish talking. Oh, by the way, I need something. And when's the last time that you actually called a friend? Just to see how they're really doing, so all of those things are important, know, and I think that, , making sure that the, in the Circulo right, that's what I've learned, at least where I need to now go back and really express to let my, my friends here, my family know here. How are you really doing? Right. Let me, let's talk, you could talk to me if you would like. So I guess that's 1 thing I wanted to add into it is that, even though I'm picking up a lot of things over there in the Circulo, what am I doing here to be able to. To do that even for my own kids, by the way.'cause when's the last time we actually told our kids how they're doing? Right. What I do is usually I'll go out with my wife then, one-on-one, we'll talk, we'll have a good conversation. But when's the last time you took your own son? Just that one son by themselves.'cause I have three kids, and I've always said this to myself. I'm gonna take them on a little, dinner or a little lunch. You'll be amazed how much you'll hear from that, that kid when not the whole familia is there, and yes, of course having family gatherings, but when's the last time you took your son just to talk to them one-on-one, have a good meal with them and then be able to, express to you how they're really doing. So all of that stuff I picked up, I've done that and it's amazing because now that I'm thinking about this, that I picked out from my dad, by the way. So here I started off with him being an alcoholic, but I picked that from my father. Unfortunately, he would pick me up because I would get in trouble at school and then he would have lunch with me, and then he would talk to me one-on-one. Maybe that's the reason why I would get in trouble all the time. But, but you see that, that's the thing is that I, I picked up all the negative things that I did and or that I was doing there, or the environment there, and I picked it up to a positive thing. That's pretty much what I wanted to talk about there. When, when we talk about the, , the Circulo, and how, how else can we extend it?

Vincent Perez: 21:03

I'm hearing from you, Mike, like. The language I have is about how, how can I be a safe man? Am I safe, especially for my family, right? Am I approachable? One of my sons has, he's been working at a cemetery for the last year and a half, and that's changed his whole worldview 'cause he's dealing with death every day and he calls more. He sees how fragile life is. And what I'm really impressed by, and even in this conversation thinking about this intergenerational. Kind of idea of, you said, Leo, like from abuelos, I'm thinking about my nephew. I'm taking my nephew to the next Retiro. Like it's going to happen. We started going on walks, once or twice a month. I've been inviting him out and we're just gonna go, around the water here in Olympia. And, that's just like you're saying, like, it's so rich just to have some one-on-one time. I'm curious about this intergenerational question. Leo, do you have anything to offer about I think it's so critical to have, what I was most impressed with is like there's some guys 18, 19 and some, an octogenarian, like everything in between. And that's what I, I left Retiro like look at all this vast life experience what the young men can learn from the elders. And the elders can learn from the young men as well. Right?

Leo Lopez: 22:11

The intergenerational is so important. Unfortunately, I think, we don't value enough in our society. The intergenerational, importance and how it's, critical and integral to our entire development. As you mentioned, as I think about my life so far, always having been surrounded, with all generations, from newborns. Wherever I was at in that moment, to my parents, my Tios, my Tias,, my abuelos. I was fortunate to have lived with, my great-grandfather as well. We take for granted, all that knowledge that they have and sometimes don't tap into it. And so as you were mentioning, if you, when you attend a Circulo, the varying generations that are there. if you know a little bit about the history of the Circulo, it's been happening for a long time, since 1988. For the ones that we've, us three have attended. it all started with men who were in their thirties and forties probably at that time. And, we had a maestro. Who, was part of that original Circulo, one of the founding, fathers of it. And, he shares about from the time, that it started to the time, when he was there last, and I got to participate with Maestro Jose Montoya. And he talks about how beautiful it was to see the varying generations that, had now become part of the Circulo, it wasn't, these middle aged older men anymore, but rather these young jaguars right. Coming to be, and, becoming part of that Circulo. And they impressed everybody, right? Because they were the ones that, stepped up and, helped heal a lot of the older men that were there. With that, with the knowledge that they were bringing. And I really appreciate your question about that in terms of what does the intergenerational look like? And why is it important? And it is because we all bring our own medicine and are able to share it. And when you share, it's a beautiful experience to have because you get to see the beauty and. The teachings that come with it, from all those generations. I had the opportunity, six years ago to bring my son, to the Retiro for the first time when he was 10. And, it was a beautiful experience to have him there with me because I was a young man when I started attending. My son didn't even exist back then. I had two young daughters. They were babies at the time. And now they're young adult women. And, I used to see other men that were, starting to bring their sons with them. And I said, one day, I'm gonna hopefully be able to have that opportunity. And I did. And, I'm just, very fortunate that I was able to have that opportunity and I get to see, a lot of these men, to see their sons have grown within the Circulo as well and continue to come and participate. And so, very excited for you, Vincent, when you say you're gonna bring yours with you and, I know it's gonna be a beautiful experience the intergenerational is so important, that we cannot forget that we all have something to offer, including, our elders.

Vincent Perez: 25:07

Mike, anything you wanna add to that?

Miguel Chuca: 25:08

No. Yeah. And the one thing that I wanted to add is that, one thing that I noticed, at the Retiro, was, yeah, there's a lot of young kids, that have so much knowledge, When I'm always working or talking to a, a younger kid or a younger person, I also need to make sure that I look at all the other attributes that they have, right? Or that that's going on with their area. Now if you look at all the social media that's happening, all the AI stuff, we didn't grow up with that, so sometimes we need to make sure that, we're open-minded again to what what they're going through. Because what they went through, what we went through is totally different than what they're going through as far as the environment, and so sometimes we need to be open-minded about it, because, what I've noticed is people my age, at least some of some people are easy. They easily criticize, oh, you guys are just used to all the social media stuff, or whatever it is. But if you really wanna get to somebody, maybe you could use it to your advantage. A good example is, I think that a few years ago, at least my, actually it's been a while already. My 24-year-old, she was like in her teens, maybe 15 years old, she was very quiet. She was going through a lot, maybe a little bit of bullying actually. I needed to talk to her. She didn't wanna, she didn't wanna communicate, I was getting a little worried about her, so I sat on the sofa and I decided, let me send her a text. So I said, Hey, what's up? What are you doing? And she's like, what do you mean what I'm doing? I'm doing fine. And I said, okay, well how's everything going? And she comes out of the door 'cause she's there at the house as well. She said, what are you doing? I said, well, I just wanted to say hi. And she started laughing 'cause I'm texting her, but she's right next door. And I said, Hey, you wanna go for a walk? Sure, let's go for a walk. So I kind of use that technology just to be able to communicate with her. Same thing with now what I see now, going back to the Retiro. I see a lot of kids there, that have so much knowledge that we could grow, that we could learn from. But at the same time, if we're gonna wanna hear them out, we need to understand what's going on with their environment as well, because they grew up a lot different than we do, that's for sure. And even as parents, we have to make sure that we, understand that, because it's totally different.

Vincent Perez: 27:07

Yeah, I really appreciate that.'cause I have no idea what it's like.'cause they're like going to bed with these things, these devices, they're being bombarded. But to your point earlier, Mike, about what is your thinking? How does this affect their worldview? How does this affect how they see themselves, how they relate to others? Really appreciate that story. I is , I'm gonna text her right next door. That's funny. And then, then she comes out, that gets her out of the door, right? That's just, that's yeah. To that connection to the walk. Is there anything that's,. Kind of on your heart. I mean, part of the question here is like what, what even calls you? What calls you to, to connect to, what I would say men's work, men's healing. we talk about our lives. I feel very similar right here. I don't know. I, I identify as Chicano, right? So for me, like Hermanos, I feel very like, oh, this is home. This is a similar cultura. Being impacted by labor, like by work, trabajo, trabajo, like that is just, just cemented, you know, like in my whole family story about all the work that men do, all the hours we put in and then the, how that affects us, right? Good, bad or ugly, how we deal or don't deal with all of that. The substances, barrio life, to me, I think all about all of that. So is there anything that's on your heart that's really calling, to look at, to examine, to be with?

Leo Lopez: 28:21

When I think about that, Vincent, , I think about my pareja, something that we haven't shared, or discussed as of yet, but that no matter who our pareja is and for me it's my wife, right? That balance that she brings, , It reminds me, , of how to be a man too., One that isn't always just working,, isn't always just providing., She knows that's what we do. It's part of our culture, right? We're told, you know, gotta work, gotta provide, gotta support. And we do., But. At least when I'm home, when I get home, wherever I may be.'cause sometimes I travel as well. I, I actually, my whole career, I traveled quite a bit and, , balancing that out about, okay, you're a provider. You're supporting, but I need you emotionally here too. We have children. And reminding me about, what my involvement should be. And you would think that would come naturally, but it doesn't. At least it, you know, sometimes it doesn't., But just, just that ability to be, a good partner with one another and, remind me of that. There's other things that, that I need to, , be aware of., As Mike was pointing out, the involvement. And I did get that from my father.'cause, he was around and I saw how he was involved with us. But you can easily get sidetracked because you're so focused on yourself and your work. And bringing in that balance, the balance that I, think our parejas, bring to us and I'm speaking from, the female perspective of things, that balance that they offer and, , keep us , in line , in a good way. Right. About what our roles are and how we can grow, and develop those roles as well. And so basically a shout out, to the Mujeres, , out there who, help bring that balance that we all need. So that's what I carry in my heart all the time, is that I always remember and acknowledge that I'm only who I am and where I am because of, , the women in my life too. And I know we're talking about men's and men's healing, but women are a part of men's healing. They offer that opportunity for us, and ability to heal in a way, that we never forget that other side, and it's that feminine side. So that's what I think about.

Vincent Perez: 30:24

That's beautiful. Thank you. How about for you, Mike? Anything that's also on your heart that

Miguel Chuca: 30:29

Same thing, making sure that, we take care of our, partner, like my wife is for example. Because I know that, we, like Leo had mentioned, we work a lot, and she works a lot as well. And, and sometimes, it's difficult to make sure that, this is something that, I've, learned as, again, time has gone. But, every time I go to the house, I leave everything. I leave all the work, at work. That was hard. Before, it was hard to do that, when we were younger, because again, we're trying to like. Grow , and develop. And, , that's what we were, we were taught right to, to work hard. What I've been doing and what I try to do is when I'm there with my family, with my wife, my kids, I'm there, I'm there. I might work, let's say if I, even if I work a lot, but if I'm gonna spend, two, five hours, six hours, whatever it is, it's gonna be with them. It's not about the, the quality, it's a quantity that you spend with 'em, right? And that's something that's important. Now, I do wanna make sure that I also say this because what I've, learned a lot is here we are, us three as hombres, talking, respectful, being respectful with each other and talking, very professional. Let's say if I'm talking to you like this here, very professional hermanos, and then I go home and my kids, my wife, are like, dad, and then I start yelling I don't wanna talk to you right now. I'm so stressed. Leave me alone. I had a tough day. These are the people that love you the most, talk about corazon, right? Talk about who's in your heart, but yet, because of all the stress you have. The ones that love you the most. Sometimes those are the ones we treat the worst. And I told myself I'm never gonna do that because how can I do that? Again, you go to work, you go anywhere you're at and you're professional, but you go home and then you're here, you are talking to your poor, 13-year-old or 2-year-old, whatever it is, right? Or your wife and, and telling them, I don't wanna talk to you right now, or you're yelling, or not even listening. To me, that's not a good thing. And I know that it's easy for us to do that sometimes, right? So what I do now is this is, say I go and I'm stressed. I'm stressed, or whatever it might be. My wife starts talking to me about all these things that are happening. She knows now, I usually say, Hey look, can I just, have a couple minutes? Let me just go and do something and we'll talk about it in a little bit, instead of us going back and forth and getting into a bad situation there. The people that are in your heart, those are the ones you gotta treat the best.'cause they're the ones that are gonna back you up. They're the ones that are gonna be there for you at the end of the day. Nobody else. And that's something that, that you have to make sure that you understand, that they're the ones that are, they're on your team. They're the ones that love you the most.

Vincent Perez: 32:53

Y'all. I really appreciate where this conversation has gone. Just a few days ago, my wife and I celebrated 25 years, of marriage. And as you're talking like, where have I actually really learned to be a man? And I think it's certainly in this relationship, in this marriage and the expectations to like be better right? To rise up to the need that's really there. And not get caught up in my own. my own feelings or whatever. I like, I'm stressed, I'm dealing with this. And I think for me, the one other balancing factor as I look back on my life and raising my boys. We spent six years, in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest. Just among green life, and I think these family relationships plus us out in the woods. With my nephew where we, like I said, when we go walk, we meet at Squaxin Park over here. It's, little local place, but it's in the wilderness. It's in the natural world. Which is also something I feel really connected to with NCN, the invitation for the medicines to come in, the invitation for us to really think about our connections, in this world, right? Our familias. And so it's in our homes, it's in our land. So I just, I'm just grateful that, we're naming these things right, and identifying that, it's not just hombres to hombres, right? How do we really take , from all those around us? So, as we get ready to close here, I'm curious, is there anything you really wanna celebrate? Anything you really want to emphasize? some of the beauties, some of the connections, to raise up, 'cause as we look at, the manosphere, and I'm, I'm really concerned about ultimately men's violence. I mean, why am I doing this? Why do we even have this podcast from me?, It's violence in my own family, it's violence in my home, but it's inward too. It's violence turned inwards for men. We look at the suicide rates we look at, but outward. So how do I cope? How do I deal? How do I live a balanced, good life? And so I'm curious, is there anything you want to raise up and celebrate in those efforts?

Leo Lopez: 34:51

for me, I'd like to start here because I think for, as you're an example of that, Vincent, right? You're doing this work out here, you've been doing it for a long time. And, you met me, I introduced you to Mike, and we're creating these spaces, right? You're helping to create these spaces of lifting up these voices that exist all over this country, right? There are men like us out there and all men in general. We all need that support. I think just the ability to lift up those voices. We all live in certain, in different communities and in those communities and even close to home, like you said, sometimes in our own homes, extended family members homes, the violence exists and the young men in particular are seeing all that around them and they think that's the norm. And it isn't the norm. And I think about, our learnings and teachings that we've learned from the Circulo, in our indigenous ways and our indigenous practices that, that isn't the way we've always been. It's not the right way of behaving and conducting and carrying ourselves, but rather how do we support those people that, that need that extra help, right? How do we lift up those young brothers and sisters, to let them know that they're sacred, right? We're all sacred. And sometimes we forget that each of us is, sacred in our own way. And I think about, what I've learned over time, through the National Compadres Network, and the maestros there about, we have to continue to bless up, those folks, bless up ourselves first and foremost because, how can we help others if we're ourselves not in a good place? And how do we share that with those blessings, to continue to lift up, in particular, those young boys and men that are contemplating, that they have no value, that, there's no reason for them to be alive in this world. But remind them that there is a place for you. You have a place, you are sacred, you are a blessing. And how do we lift them up? And those other brothers, that are out there doing tonterias, right. Because they think that's what they're supposed to be doing. They see it in movies, they see it in society. They think that's what gives them that masculinity. In terms of that's how they're supposed to be in reality. No. Your masculinity doesn't have to come from there. Your masculinity comes from, who we are as first and foremost as individuals, but who we are as a people. And that we all carry medicine and we need to be able to share that medicine, so that you can give it to that younger generation that's looking up to you, seeing you do those things that you're not supposed to be doing. And the elders looking down and saying, what happened? Why is this going on? What happens is that we're informed and told, to not be connected to who we are as individuals and as a people, and not to value our own, our own cultura, our culture. And the reality is we have a beautiful culture, just like many others out there in this world, and we should be accessing, celebrating, and utilizing that culture in a way that lifts us up We're still here because of that Cultura when we weren't supposed to be here. Right? I think about those things, how deep do we wanna go? We don't have enough time on this podcast, unfortunately. Right? that's what I want to raise up and celebrate because it does exist. We all are sharing and carrying this, knowledge with us and hopefully let's pass it around. As Mike was saying, how do we pass this around to others? And it starts with ourselves, and it starts with our own immediate families, but it also happens in our day-to-day work and then in our day-to-day interactions and from the respective communities where we come from and live.

Vincent Perez: 38:07

Thank you. Mike, wanna close us out? Close this out?

Miguel Chuca: 38:11

Exactly what Leo mentioned, but I also wanna celebrate the fact that, friendships, like his and I,

Vincent Perez: 38:17

Hmm.

Miguel Chuca: 38:18

are, are as important, because, even though we don't live in the same area, I do wanna celebrate that. I also wanna celebrate, if you think about how we started with, our parents, we started with our parents They did everything they could to teach us, whatever they knew, whether they were misconceptions or not, they taught us as much as they could. And then now, we are who we are and then we wanna pass the baton and keep on making sure that our kids are learning more. I'm so proud of Leo's daughters, for example. Very successful. why? Because of where we started to where we're now. I didn't grow up with a lot of, for example, Anglos or, anything else, other Americanos. But, sometimes we were like, man, Anglos are bad, because, they're rich or whatever. And that's not the way I think about it nowadays. They're just in a different time of their generation and so they've been able to be successful as they go., What we gotta teach our people is that, we might be, in a different timeframe of, how successful we could become. Let give you an example. When I was growing up, my dad would talk about how he left, some money in Idaho, in the bank. He left like $10 in the savings, and he would always talk about it, you know, and he's like, man, we're probably rich right now.'cause of all the interest, I really feel that he really thought that. He was probably rich because of the interest, and it's good that he was thinking that, right? But now think about how much I've learned about interest and all that stuff, and then how much I've taught my kids, we keep on passing the baton to the point that, Leo's telling his daughters, Hey, make sure that you get an education. Make sure that you do this, and that. when I was growing up, it wasn't even talked about graduating from high school. Now I'm talking to my kids, Hey, make sure you get a career right away. So we're passing on the baton and it's important that we talk to our kids. You, not just our kids. I'm talking about our, young kids. The priorities have to be where they gotta continue growing. And, us teaching them things that maybe, you know, we didn't learn when we were younger. And that's gonna help our cultura, our people to be able to continue growing and developing. So that we could be at a better place, all of us, and that's something that wish that I could share with all the young people, as many as I could, that it's not about, like Leo mentioned, them causing problems or whatever else. It's about how much can you do and how much can you learn so that you could be able to continue growing as a, people, in general.

Vincent Perez: 40:33

I really feel that, my father, he died in illiterate man. I can, I saw how much that hurt him and, what that meant for me in my own pathway. And then how do I pass that baton to my children? Right. Thank you so much. All this, even how you say we are all medicine. I feel that in this conversation and a lot of gratitude, Leo, you gifted me some medicine. On the way out of that Retiro and serving at the state juvenile prison, we used that. I just always did a little pinch. A little pinch.'cause I didn't want it to go away. But it was such a gift that kept giving and I'm so grateful that, whatever you recognize or however you saw it, that you just were able to give a stranger at the time. This gift, and I just want you to know how much that meant to me and how much it still means to me these years later. It was such a beautiful, beautiful gift to receive. Thank you so much.

Leo Lopez: 41:22

No, thank you brother. Appreciate it as well. And appreciate you, Mike. I know you know that, but I'll appreciate you and your family. I wanna shout out, to Hope, his wife, and, seeing his kids grow as well. It's beautiful.

Miguel Chuca: 41:34

Thank you. Appreciate.

Vincent Perez: 41:35

and thanks for intro introducing me to Mike and making these connections.

Miguel Chuca: 41:38

we'll see you at the Retiro We'll see how you know who, what time we actually go. Right, because there's like three of 'em I heard.

Vincent Perez: 41:43

All right. Blessings.

Miguel Chuca: 41:44

Thank you.

Leo Lopez: 41:45

Take care. Bye-bye.

Vincent Perez: 41:47

Thank you for being here with us today. I want to thank Leo and Miguel for their honesty, their presence, and their willingness to sit together in conversation. This was a powerful reflection on brotherhood culture and the responsibility we carry as men to support our families and communities. I am deeply grateful for their time, openness, and care. Thank you to you both for joining me in the conversation on Men's Healing. What really came through for me was your deep appreciation and love for one another. And for the listener, please take a moment to reflect on the men who shaped you and the kind of man you're becoming for the next generation. If something in today's conversation resonated with you, I encourage you to stay connected to the work of the Men's Healing Network. You can learn more about our programs, circles, and upcoming events at MHN.Life. The Men's Healing Network Podcast is made possible in part through the support of Choice Regional Health Network, whose commitment to community wellbeing helps make this work possible. Our podcast is produced by Tom Keppeler. Special thanks to Dee Enriquez for her logistical and marketing expertise. And if you know a man who might benefit from this conversation, please share this episode and invite him to listen. Until next time, thank you for joining us. Be well and keep doing the work. My name is Vincent Perez. Blessings to you and yours.