Episode 4: Practice Makes Human

Practice Makes Human

We often talk about healing as if it's a destination—something we'll finally arrive at once we've read enough books, attended enough workshops, or figured ourselves out.

But what if healing isn't something we achieve?

What if it's something we practice?

In this episode of the Men's Healing Network Podcast, host Vincent Perez sits down with Jason Hill and Mason Aviles, the team behind Beyond The Man Box, to explore what it actually takes to build emotional intelligence, strengthen relationships, and become more fully human.

Together, they unpack why self-love isn't self-indulgence, why empathy is a skill—not a personality trait—and why practicing difficult conversations may be just as important as having them. Through deeply personal stories about friendship, heartbreak, marriage, failure, suicide recovery, and personal growth, Jason and Mason challenge the idea that men need to be perfect. Instead, they offer something far more practical: the opportunity to practice.

Whether you're navigating conflict with a partner, struggling through loss, leading a team, or simply trying to become a more grounded man, this conversation is a reminder that growth doesn't happen overnight. It happens one conversation, one relationship, and one intentional choice at a time.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why healing is a practice—not a destination
• The difference between knowing and applying emotional intelligence
• How self-love changes the way we receive feedback
• Learning to separate self-worth from achievement and productivity
• Why empathy is a skill that can be developed
• The importance of practicing difficult conversations
• Navigating conflict without defensiveness
• Healthy masculinity, emotional regulation, and relationship repair
• Why community matters in personal growth
• How curiosity can transform relationships

About Our Guests

Jason Hill is the CEO and Lead Facilitator at Beyond The Man Box. For more than a decade, he has guided men through the high-stakes work of emotional regulation, relationship repair, and difficult conversations. Through transformational retreats and mentorship, Jason helps men become stronger partners, fathers, leaders, and human beings.

Mason Aviles leads technology, operations, and product at Beyond The Man Box, building the digital systems that make the organization's curriculum accessible beyond the retreat room. With more than 12 years of software engineering experience, he helps transform emotional growth into practical tools that men can use every day.

Connect with Beyond The Man Box

Website: https://beyondthemanbox.com/

Jason Hill on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonthomashill/

Beyond The Man Box on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/beyondthemanbox/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61588583007749

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyondthemanbox/

Host: Vincent Perez

Producer: Tom Keppeler

Marketing and Logistics: Dee Enriquez

Special thanks to Choice Regional Health Network for supporting the Men's Healing Network Podcast and helping make these conversations about men's mental health, healing, and connection possible.

If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use the reminder that healing isn't about perfection—it's about practice.

Transcript

Welcome to Practice Makes Human

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Blessings all, and welcome back to the Man's Healing Network Podcast. I'm your host, Vincent Verez. One of the questions I hear more than almost any other is this. I understand why healing matters, but how do I actually do it? We live in a culture that's full of podcasts, books, videos, and advice about becoming a better man. But information alone does not transform us. Transformation comes through practice. Today's guests have dedicated their work to helping men put that practice into action. Jason Hill is the CEO and lead facilitator of Beyond the Man Box, where for more than a decade he's helped men navigate conflict, emotional regulation, and relationship repair. His invited guest is Mason Aviles, who leads technology, operations, and product, helping translate that work into practical tools and experiences that extend far beyond the retreat room. Together they're challenging a common assumption that empathy, emotional intelligence, and healthy relationships are traits you're either born with or you're not. Instead, they argue these are skills, skills that can be learned, practiced, strengthened. Just like any other discipline, in our conversation, we explore self-love, difficult conversations, nervous system awareness, conflict, heartbreak, and why becoming a healthier man isn't about reaching perfection. It's about returning to the practice. I'm grateful you're here. Let's begin. Welcome to the Men's Healing Network podcast. Y'all, I am so excited for this conversation. Jason Hill, I met you at the Big Ten Summit last month in Denver, Colorado, and you touched my heart, man. You got a charisma about

"Teach Me How to Love You"

SPEAKER_01 1:48

you. There's something about what you shared in small group, what you shared on the microphone among these hundred-plus men that felt very grounded. It felt very rooted, comfortable in your own skin. And I'm just deeply grateful to have crossed paths with you. And so the invitation is so rich and so far in all of this big umbrella that we call men's work. And so thank you so much for accepting this invitation. And as we get started, I would like you to introduce who you invited and why.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Amazing. The first thing I do want to say is that I felt the same way about you. I was telling Mason that I won't go into all the details, but I was telling him that you stood up when there was a guy who was on stage who's been like touted as an expert who was saying something that wasn't quite right and wasn't quite ethical. And I love that you stood up and you said, no, we need to draw a line in the sand. And you started with your vulnerability and your own experience. And I fucking can I curse you?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Be who you are.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Okay. I fucking loved it. So I just kind of honored that first, and then I'm gonna go talk about how amazing Mason is.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Okay, so Mason, the first time we really hung out was at F1, and we were having a conversation, you know. I knew I liked his energy. I'd met him briefly before we went to a finance thing together, and I was like, I like this guy's energy, and I don't know what it is, but I just do. And then I invited him, I got free tickets to F1, and I was just like, of all the people I knew, I was like, I want to invite Mason. I just want to get to know him more. Like that's what was being called to me. So I was like, do you want to go? He was like, Yes. So we were talking, having a good time, and there was this one moment because Mason is like me, he gets very excited, and he was kind of like just like interrupting me and didn't know it, right? And so I had placed my hand on his shoulder and I was like, Hey man, would you mind not interrupting me? Right. And then it was all fine. It was just like a brief little moment. And then later on the car ride home, right? This is like an hour, more than an hour later, he was like, I just want to thank you so much for saying that to me. Because I know that if you weren't invested in a friendship with me, you would have just let it go and we wouldn't have talked ever again. But you bringing that up tells me that you are down to teach me how to love you. And I just love that, and that is how our relationship has been ever since. Mason is the first person in my life where I have been able to be completely honest about what I'm feeling and what's going on, and he's been able to be honest about what he's feeling and what's going on for him within our relationship, and we actually just talk about it quickly, and then we're able to move on. Like he's the first one that I haven't had to like wait and be like, when's he gonna text me back? Or I don't know, you know, it just we just are able to talk and just we're both very empathetic, and I love that. So he's amazing. I fucking love you, Mason.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Thank you so much, Mason. This is maybe the hardest part, I think, often in how our format works, but in these invitations, the big conversation is men's healing, right? And I specifically landed on the word healing very intentionally, and so as we kind of get into the conversation, I'm curious. Actually, first tell me about Jason before I ask you this big question.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Yeah, I would love to talk about Jason. We feel the same way in that regard. I think my favorite thing about Jason and just me and Jason in general is we're so equally energetic and equally opinionated, but we're so different in other regards. And I think that's the satisfaction that Jason is really talking about is like, hey, we're doing this, and we're actually very different. We almost have like different like ways we approach life too. And so I felt that special about Jason too, because I have such a strong personality, and sometimes it can be so loud. People sometimes have the tendency of being like,

What Men's Healing Really Means

SPEAKER_02 6:04

oh, I don't want to correct him, or I don't want to tell him what Jason told me, because sometimes it's so loud, you kind of just you're afraid almost. And so when Jason was able to just do that, and for me to acknowledge it and accept it, and for him to actually accept it and our conversation continue, I had a lot of respect for him in that way because I was like, wow, he he has enough self-love and efficacy to say, hey Mason, please engage with me in this way. And then I was able to actually acknowledge it and and do it. And he didn't question it. He said, Wow, yeah, I feel that he heard my message. I don't have to then keep poking at it. And then on top of that, when he received my thank you, it surprised him so much. And when it surprised him, that's when I realized, oh, this is good. This is good for both of us. This is good, like this kind of connection is good for both of us. Because I love people who can say, Hey Mason, you're such a strong personality, but maybe if we were like this, we could connect more. I I have a lot of respect for that.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

It sounds very honest and real, right? Just really bringing our full selves to work, right? To the service. And so in that line, Mason, the big question, what does men's healing mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Men's healing. We talked a little bit before we hit record, and when you said I found self-love when we were kind of grounding in ourselves and healing, I immediately thought, oh, I thought I I found that too when I closed my eyes. And it actually goes along with almost the example of what Jason and I were going through. For instance, there was a moment where I was like, wow, I'm really glad of the work I've done. Because when Jason told me, hey man, please don't interrupt me when I talk. You know, it sounds so corny sometimes, but I practice self-love. So when I heard Jason say that, it wasn't an attack on my character. It wasn't some, oh, uh, you're such a bad person. You're so bad at communicating, like, oh, you're so bad at being a friend. Like I didn't hear that because I just have so much love for I'm like building love and understanding for myself, right? And when I heard that in my head, I grounded in, hey, wow, yeah, I do want to listen to this person. I want to communicate well with this person. My goal is to have a really great interaction with this person, and they're giving me instructions of how to make this interaction better. Never in those instructions did he say, Oh, your character is bad. Oh, the way your presence is bad. Oh, I actually don't like sitting next to you now that I've said that. Like, and I think sometimes, men, we have these interactions and dialogue in our head that really like almost counteracts reality sometimes, right? It takes over not us not hearing the real truth and things is connection. Instead, when you don't practice self-love, when someone gives you a connection, like a connection moment, which is what Jason did. Hey Mason, here's the best way to listen to me. When you don't have that self-love, sometimes that connection sounds like an attack. Sometimes it sounds like, oh, I'm not a good person. And so that's why I think you know, men's healing, it really starts with looking in the mirror and saying, hey, I deserve the process of healing. I'm a good person. I I deserve that. And where I start now is okay, because I understand my life and where I come from. So, like, and that's so much love and understanding. And sometimes already that is so much for people. But I think to me, I think that's such a good step in what men's healing is.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Even in this literal little interaction, you're you're sharing and being critiqued, right? So there's like, I'm gonna teach you how to love me. I love that language you gave Jason. But there's also this defensiveness that could happen. And then what I hear you saying, Mason, is that even this self-criticism that comes, which for me in my own life is mean. This voice is like a whip. And wow, is he mean? I've been working for years now to even be aware, to catch, and build a relationship, right? Not an antagonistic one, but like, uh, you're not needed right now, or you're not serving me right now, and really trying to gauge how that how that impacts my everyday experience. So thank you for naming just out of the shoots, self-love. I don't know if as men we really get to have that conversation or even explore what that even means. Like it happened in a lot of ways. Self-empathy is something I'm really working on right now. Like just saying to myself, and you know, we can do this, like Vincent, I can say my own name, or you or I, however you first, second, third person, however you want. But wow, you're holding a lot. You're holding a lot, you know, and just even acknowledging that. But even as I say it, the little voice is like, Well, does that mean you're you're all boo-hoo and wallowing in some kind of way? It's like, no, even there, it has to just acknowledge what the truth is. And a lot of us are caring so much. Jason, I'm curious for you, the same question is anything in Mason's answer or of your own exploration. What does men's healing mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah, I love self-love. Like that wasn't the word that had come to me, but it was the same concept. I was thinking more, you are worth more than what you provide and more of what you do. Like you are worthy for who you are. I remember like having a conversation with my barber. He was talking about day trading and how he just felt like he wasn't doing a good enough job at it, and like he's let his wife down, he's let his family down, and all this stuff. And I was just like, dude, you're learning a new skill. What do you love about yourself? And he was like, uh, I don't know. Uh I love that I'm ambitious, I love that I provide for my family. And I was like, Well, what do you love about you though? Like, what do you love about you that is not related to like acquiring something or playing a provider role, right? Like, what do you love about you? And it took him a while. He's like cutting my hair and it's just silent. And then he finally was like, you know, I think I have a good heart. And I was like, Yes, yes. Right? Like, as men, we we really don't think about this. And this is why you had mentioned earlier when we were talking before we went live, just about what about the man that like loses his job and stuff? And I think about how career and identity and provision is so tied up into how men value themselves that it's like, oh, I don't have this title anymore, I'm worthless. My girlfriend broke up with me and she was really hot. Oh, I don't have this hot girl anymore, now I'm worthless. It's just like, no, that's not it at all.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

You are hitting such a cord right now, and I know this will air at a different time, but

When Our Worth Depends on Our Work

SPEAKER_01 13:08

my oldest son is really struggling. And he he called last night, and my wife and I were with him for a little over an hour. And I I hesitate here because I haven't asked permission for this, so we'll we'll see where this goes. But struggling with suicidal ideation. And as a father, he's recently witnessing him, he's recently divorced, recently just his job. And in this conversation, right now, in this moment, because this was just last night, less than 24 hours ago, the meaning we derive from our roles that we play and the pressure to provide, the pressure to breadwin is so intense. There's a group of young men that I've served for two years now, high school students. I'll see tomorrow, actually, where I'll take the four seniors who are graduating to dinner. And even then, even just last week, they're getting ready to graduate, they're excited, you know, different pathways, community college here, electrician pathway there, just different things happening in their lives. But I felt when I left and drove away from the school last week, like, oh my goodness. I just turned 50 this year. That hasn't gone away. When I graduate, I wanted to provide for my mom. I wanted to do all the things and give all the things that we didn't have. And it's the same story in these young men. This desire to provide and give, give, give. This is touching on something very interesting to me. I'm curious where that leads either one of you.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Personally, for me, I find a sense of providing part of masculinity. And it's a natural, at least for me, a natural thing to pursue. But there are two buckets when I hear these stories. There's there's our here is a goal that I have, and a goal that's like almost against the world. Like here is a goal. But there are things that come with pursuing a goal. There's fears, there's insecurities, there's learning. So there's a sense of separating your self-worth and understanding, and then this goal you have, whether it be learn how to ride a bike, learn how to drive stick, learn a skill that could make me better at my job, provide for my family. These are all very valid goals as a human, right? A woman can have these goals. Goals aren't bad, but how do we manage our feelings when our goals don't work out the way we want them or look something different? There's so many things that could happen when you pursue a goal. And sometimes people think they associate the worth with this goal. When actually there's all these things that come with pursuing a goal or pursuing growth. There's insecurities. There's what Jason says, there's times where you're gonna be unskillful. Like when you learned how to read and write as a kid. Yes, it was very stressful. It was very uncomfortable. But somewhere in us, we managed our emotions and got through it. And so I do find that there is this thing in life where it's okay to have goals. It's okay to say, hey, this is how I would love to show up in my relationship. Wow, how do I deal with all these feelings? Wow, I'm afraid. Wow, I'm insecure. Wow, I tried it once or twice and I did really bad. Does that mean I'm bad? Like there's all these things that go with pursuing a goal. And I just think men, and honestly, a lot of people don't have that support of what that process is of going through a goal, especially in adulthood. When I was young in my 20s, I played rugby. I threw my body at everything. And I, with no regards, I ended up getting shoulder surgery. And I joke now that I'm still as adventurous, but there are moments where I look at an activity and I go, I'm too old for that. I'm not ready to hurt my body the way my 20-year-old self was ready to just go for it. And so there's this sense of when you learn something as an adult, what you're able to take is different. And I don't think people and men know how to accommodate for the differences of when you learn something at a certain time in your life, right? Like you can't think back to your 20s and be like, oh yeah, I was able to come home and drink a Gatorade and I figured it out in three hours. Like, well, yeah, you didn't have to pay mortgage, you didn't XYZ, you didn't have in-laws, you didn't have all these things. And so there's this sense of, and this is where I always come back to self-love. You need to have understanding of your situation. It's okay to have a goal. And it's okay if that goal is big and so hard to attain. And it's okay if you start from negative five to your goal. But as you pursue your goal, don't forget to look in the mirror and be all like, wow, I had a hard day today. So, like, I did what I did for my goal today, I think is actually enough. I was really busy at work today. Oh man, my wife and I are fighting. Like, you know what? I was able to do this much of my goal today. Or maybe all you have to do sometimes is I had enough time to think about my goal today. I had enough time to look in the mirror and say, hey, is that still a goal of mine? Yes, it is. Okay, that's what I can do today. And I just think sometimes it's either a hundred or zero. Like it's either I did my goal and I knocked it out of the park, or I did it. And there's a middle, there's a process. And sometimes I think people lose that.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

What I hear is acknowledging where you are in the journey as you are through it and in it, of what your experience is. That's what I hear. In like, okay, let me pause, let me slow down. What am I feeling?

SPEAKER_02 18:32

And providing is so many different things. You know, sometimes I also think that people being a too literal with providing. Oh, it must mean money. Oh, it must mean no, look in the mirror. What are you good at? Oh, I'm really good at listening. Okay, well, I bet whoever you're supposed to be with or you're gonna have this next connection with, they're gonna look at you and be like, wow, I feel so listened to by you. And it has nothing to do with you buying them dinner or you driving a cool car. Providing is more than physical things. It's what are what are you good at? What are you good at? Be okay with that. It's okay that you're not good at everything. And it's okay if your goal you pursue it in the way that you're good at and not what the TV says you should be good at. What if you're like, oh, I want to be a content creator, but I'm so shy. Okay, that's fine. You don't have to suddenly not be shy. How could you do it and be shy? Oh, maybe, maybe I don't show my face. Maybe I just talk. Okay, that's a great step, right? There's so many ways to accomplish a goal. And sometimes, guys, they just think they have to be like each other. Oh, I have to go to the gym three hours every day. And I gotta, I gotta wake up at five in the morning and pound of water, do a cold plunge. Like that's no. Like if you're a morning person, then yes. If you're not, don't do that. That might not be fun for you, and you might feel like you're not good enough, right? So it starts with here's my goal, and here's me, here's me, like with love, not with, oh, I wish I was six foot five and jacked. And if I was like that, oh, I could start my goal then, right? No. Here's your goal, here's you with love. Like, oh yeah, I've had a hard life, but wow, I still want to try. Wow, I've had a hard few months, but I still don't want to give up. Wow, that's beautiful. You know what? Maybe if I could just rest today, I could start tomorrow and do a little more. You know, like just starting with love and understanding and not be all like, oh yeah, I could never do this, or my oh, my wife could never be fulfilled with just how I listen to her. Like, that's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

So Brennan, there's a few threads in there around no self and what are the different ways we provide? That's a curious question for me. Yeah, Jason, where's where's this conversation leading you?

SPEAKER_00 20:46

I completely agree, right? I feel like the pressure is to have that traditional sense of providing, which is like financial, and that's not always what we're best at. What comes to mind for me is that one of my close friends, she had a mom who

Relationships Aren't Found—They're Built

SPEAKER_00 21:05

really hated being like a mom. And a dad that actually was like the real nurturing one who loved being with the kids and was like so resentful that he had to like work all the time. And she was like, honestly, my mom would have been so much happier being the breadwinner, and my dad would have been so much happier being a stay-at-home dad and just being with his girls, but like because of societal gender roles, they were both miserable and they didn't have to be. And that's what I think about too, with what Mason said, it's so true, right? Providing, like, you know, when I was broke, the fact that I was a good listener, that was how I provided. I made women feel safe around me, and that and I am a short man. Okay, I am not six five, I am short, short, short. You know, I'm five three, I am a very short. A man and women are still attracted to me because of how I make them feel when they are around me. You know, I happen to have more money now, and I'm grateful for that. So I can provide more financially, but I still prefer to be in a relationship where we have a conversation and we actually talk about like what are our strengths, what do we want to bring to the table? In our ideal relationship, what do we want to provide? And I love so much that one of the earlier conversations Mason and I had was when he told me that he did this with his wife. And I think that is so important. People do not have open enough conversations with their partners about their strengths, their weaknesses, what kind of relationship they want to be in. They often I find people are just like, you're cute, you're cute, let's see how it works. And like that's just not that doesn't determine compatibility. And then when they find out they're not compatible, they're like, Oh, she was crazy, oh, he was an asshole. And it's like, no, you weren't compatible, and you didn't have the conversations that you need to be having.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

You know, there is something very curious to me about post-breakup, even at like affect or how we talk about people. I mean, there's so much horrible, like just vulgar, atrocious language about exes and what that might even be or mean. I love this podcast because it does lead into so many different kind of rabbit holes. You know, in Jason, this kind of speaks to the critique I had at this big summit was without an examination of men's violence, and even what I hear in this conversation about like to self, like I can be mean, really mean to myself, is that you know, like in this country, in the States, every day three women are murdered by men, seven of them. In Mexico, it's and so in more patriarchal cultures. And then, you know, in the men's violence conversation, folks are are kind of ringing the bell on men's suicide completion rates being four times that of women. That's still men's violence factored into there's a big piece of this about even psychologically how we're kind of whipping ourselves, whipping the other post-relationship, have such really intense vitriolic, like hate coming out of that, you know. We all know the the words that would could finish that sentence. And I've always found my curious like myself curious around like you said you loved them at once upon a time. Once upon a time.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

How does that change?

SPEAKER_00 24:24

I honestly have thoughts on that. I think a lot of it comes down to people not really willing to look within and like do work on examining their blind spots. It's so much easier to just blame the other person for their pain. So like they have all this unprocessed pain, and they're like, Well, it's his fault or it's her fault, and and all of a sudden they make that person into a monster. Yeah. But like, my ex is not a monster. We were deeply incompatible. I loved her a lot, she loved me a lot. The breakup was extremely painful for me. And I was able to acknowledge that there were things that she how do I say this? But we both had different ideas of what growth meant. And like we valued personal growth a lot differently. I thought we were on the same page and then found out that I was on a different page or I wanted to grow a lot faster than she did. And there's nothing wrong with where she was at. It was just we had two different like cars, you know, I was in a Ferrari and she was in a Prius. And both are valid cars, right? But I want to move at the speed of a Ferrari, and that didn't work. And so I kept trying to like, I kept thinking that, oh, I can just, if I can just pull her up, if I could just like show her the right Ferrari, she'll want to drive that instead. And that wasn't the case. And I can acknowledge on my end, what I wasn't recognizing was that even though she wasn't saying outright, I don't want a Ferrari, her nonverbal communication, her actions were all saying no. And so I was able to look at that and be like, you know what? Even though she wasn't saying it with words, everything else was communicating a boundary where she was like, No, this is not what I want. And because I didn't hear it in the way that I want to hear it or that I like to hear it, I wasn't actually seeing the boundary. And I think most people aren't willing to look like because I had friends that were like, ugh, well, she just didn't care about growing or she was lazy or whatever. And it's like, no, that's not true. We just weren't compatible.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

And then it's more important that I look at myself in ways that where I could have left sooner, where I could have like really processed the signs sooner and know that when I go into my next relationship, I will look for that sooner. I'll have more discernment and I'll be ready to walk away, an understanding we're not compatible, and it is not my job to change you.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

What really resonated with me and what you had to say was there was a moment where you could have really accepted negative opinions of her, but instead you took a step back and went, No, actually, this is actually something that I've agreed upon for myself. It doesn't mean everyone should agree upon that for themselves. And it's not always literal. Most of the times you don't sit down and have lunch with someone and say, Hey, before our conversation, I just want to let you know this is my intentions with life today. Like, no one's gonna tell you that. Like, that's how we learn about listening. When we listen to others, when like when we have this deep relationship, when you're like, oh yeah, they're a little off today, or oh, that thing they said, maybe we can go into more about that. There are signs once you get to know someone where you can choose to be curious and learn more about them. The breakups are hard. I remember talking to a therapist in my past, and she really put it a really beautiful way in that, hey, you guys found home in each other one day. You know, one time in your life, you found home in each other, and somewhere along the line, you started growing apart, and that's what it is. It feels very violent in our heart, and sometimes people don't know how to process it out, and it comes out as violent.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

There is that thread there, Mason, and as we in this conversation around like relationships, navigating relationships, and in conflict. And I don't want to by any means negate people's lived experience of harm. However, that happens, hetero, queer relationships, whatever, like we hurt each other in severe ways too. And so I don't want to somehow dismiss like men don't get hurt. But what I hear you really saying is that do we know how to navigate that? For me, for years, I've been thinking about like low-hanging fruit for boys and men in particular, is sports. Is that every game, every match, somebody loses? And if you're working with coaches who are looking at loss, right? Because as I mentioned, after a breakup and and somebody actually does serious violence to another person, there's still a loss in there, right? I lost this partnership. Or we talk about loss and grieving and bereavement in terms of like losing our people who have passed away, but we lose all the time. We're talking about losing jobs, we're talking about losing relationships, we're talking about a failing, I guess, might even be more the correct word, like loss and failure. And how do we navigate that? How do we hold that? How do we be with that when it's part of our existence? It's part of life, it's going to happen. We are going to experience loss and failure. Hard stop. What do we do with that? There's like a theme in your reflections around how do I deal with that? How do I experience my feelings as we go into this bigger conversation, right? Or if we're having this bigger conversation around what is men's work, I think a large part of it is actually exploring our inner emotional landscape. Right? This metaphor, this vast ecosystem within us, and we are actually only pinned down to a small bit of it. I mean, I'm talking a vast landscape. We climb the mountains, go into the caves, and spelunking into our own soul and the depth of our oceans and the stillness of lakes and the exposure of deserts. So anyway, it's just a beautiful metaphor I'm I'm continually playing with and engaging dialogue around for men. Because, like, we know land base. Even if you've never been to a desert, you have kind of a concept of what that desert is. What's the desert inside of you? When do you feel like you're in a desert?

SPEAKER_02 30:10

When do you feel like you're in this lush forest? Go ahead. I agree in what you're saying, in that sometimes I think people get the wrong misconception of, oh, if I go through a healing journey, I'm never gonna be angry, or I'm never gonna be sad, or I'm not ever gonna be depressed. And that's false. You know, you're gonna have every emotion until you die. You're gonna be mad, you're gonna be sad. Just like how you're equally going to be happy. You can't just say, oh, a healed person is just happy. So there are certain video games that make fun of that notion, and it kind of shows you how insane that is to think, oh, I'm only going to be happy, I'm only gonna be agreeable, or I'm gonna go down this healing journey. And anything someone tells me I'm gonna be able to hear and accept it, I'm never gonna get mad. That's wrong. The healing journey is hey, when I get mad or when I do experience loss, I know how to hold myself. I know how to keep going with life. Because you're right, you can't help what other people do. You can't force your wife to stay with you, you can't force your best friend to stay with you, you can't force your parents to understand you, you can't force someone to listen to you. So, what happens then, right? It takes two to tango. You've experienced loss, you've experienced rejection. Now what? That's gonna happen in life all the time. It's never gonna end. How do we look ourselves in the mirror and say, hey, tomorrow might be hard? But am I gonna show up for myself? Am I gonna say, hey, but we can do it? You're right. It just starts with self-love. You're right. You never know what's gonna happen. You never know if someone you love is gonna die tomorrow, knock on wood. You never know if you're gonna X, Y, Z. So many things can happen in life that suddenly, wow, I haven't been in therapy for eight

Loss, Failure, and Starting Again

SPEAKER_02 31:55

years and here I am on a depression spiral again. Was it all worth it? And I the answer is yes, because life is never gonna stop being hard. Life's never gonna stop making you angry. But what you are gonna learn though is how to show up for yourself and how to look yourself in the mirror and say, you know what? Yeah, I'm so depressed right now, but like I think I know why. And I think I know I'm gonna get through it. But right now I'm depressed, and that's okay. Because yeah, well, who wouldn't be depressed? My kid just called me dumb, or I just failed my final. Yeah, of course I'm depressed. I understand why. And there's this notion of next time of believing there will be a next time. Sometimes I think people forget there could be another time. Like, yes, you're gonna learn more, and there's gonna be a new opportunity for you and to just believe that. Like, oh, who's gonna love me again? No, someone will, and I know it's hard to think that right now, and that's maybe for future you, but for now, how do you get through this hard day today with just a little bit more love and understanding for yourself? And who knows how tomorrow be maybe it'll be a little easier, and if it's not, then go back to hey, just baby steps. I say this from a personal stance, uh, I've been through suicide rehab. So I actually, so a lot of people in my current life they see how confident and stable and sure I am, and I'm like, man, you know, I've been through it. I spent a week in 2017 in suicide rehab, and it was a really great experience, right? I here I am, and guess what? I still had to go through therapy, I still had to like I still experience life, it doesn't stop, but you just get a little more skilled and a little more, a little more.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Thank you so much for just disclosing that. That's a big deal. And you're asking this very real question for me because I and I don't know. Maybe it's a whole podcast series on how do we deal like how actually what what's the the how? How how how how how yeah, that's the how. I'm curious, is there something specific around because how do we deal with rejection? How do we deal with failure? How do we I'm curious, is it in your work? Is it in your offerings? Is it in your personal practice? Like, what actually gets to that answer? That's for either one of you.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

How I personally do it, I would say, is I just like allow myself to be honest about how I'm feeling because I know it's not gonna last forever. You know, when I was heartbroken about my ex and people would be like trying to make me feel better, I'd be like, Stop. I'm gonna feel this, and then in time I'm gonna get over it. My heart's been broken before I've gotten over it, but I don't pretend that it doesn't exist, I let it come through me. If I need to cry, I will ugly cry in my bed until I have a headache, and then I'll eat some food, hang out with a friend, right? I also have friends that are a support system. I don't just have these activity friends that I'll just go bowling with and we have no idea what's going on in our lives. I have people that I will call and I will be like, I am hurting right now. Even if it's something small. Like before my mom died, you know, like she would say stuff that would piss me off. And I'd be like, oh, I'm just I can't stop thinking about this thing my mom said, it really bothered me. Like I will, I have people that I can call about that and talk to about that and meet up about that. So I think that's the first thing. I think the second thing is in Beyond the Man Box, we do talk about relational intelligence, and we really help people with one of the things that you said, Mason, which is curiosity, right? Like being curious about what's going on for other people and their perspective, but also being curious about what is happening within us, and then learning how to do both of them at the same time, learning how to identify your emotions, understanding do I spend most of my time in a dysregulated or regulated state, learning about the science of the nervous system, which isn't just talked about in everyday language for whatever reason. I don't understand why, but what happens from like when you get triggered to when you react? And how can we create a pause between your urge to do something and the choice of what you actually do? Those are all the things that we teach, and it's because men need to learn this. Men have not been taught that. Most people haven't been taught it, but especially men. We're taught to power it through, charge on, dominate people, we'll get it done. And that's just not sustainable for anybody. It's not real, it's not human.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

I'm curious more about like what what are the offerings? I feel like the older I get, and I've said this so many more, so many times in the last few years because I'm getting older, is like life comes down to our nervous systems in such a large part. So I'm curious, what are the other kind of approaches, strategies, what's worked for you, what's worked for that you've seen for other men?

SPEAKER_00 36:50

One of the things that I will say is that we do role plays in our workshops, in our retreats. And so them actually getting to practice specific situations that were difficult, that they journaled about at the beginning, and then have either me or Mason be that role play partner with them. So they can be like, I want to practice saying this really hard thing to my wife and her responding positively, or they'll be like, I want to practice saying this really hard thing to one of the members of my board, and I want to practice them responding negatively and how I handle that. So we're able to actually work that out and exercise that muscle in real time. What I say to everybody is just like the Williams sisters, right? Serena Williams is such an amazing tennis player because she had a coach. Yeah. Right. Like most like bodybuilders, they have a coach. Having an emotional intelligence coach is actually a good thing to invest in because of that. We don't just come out of the womb knowing these things and they're not commonplace conversations. That's why we do that. Go ahead, Mason.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

And sometimes it's like when Jason was processing how he was processing his heartbreak of him realizing, oh, wow, I know this is gonna end. Right. Sometimes when you're in the thick of it, you forget, oh, this this might end too. And so that's another offering of just being getting that sanity check of people being like, wow, yeah, that's very hard. And then being like, oh wow, I thought I was just being lazy. I thought I was just not wanting to address it. You get that validation of like, yeah, that's real. You get that. And then you get that sense of now, you don't have to be afraid of hiding it, right? Like, because I do believe there's a time and place, right? You're not gonna go to your board meeting and be all like, hey, board member, you made me feel really like you're not gonna get like that's probably not gonna be a good meeting, right? And so it's like, how can we make time outside of these moments where we have to kind of perform? How do we take that time out of that performance into a private, safe space where you can talk about, oh, wow, God, there's this one person on the board and they are always second guessing me. And I, of course, I have to be so confident in front of them and everyone else, I could be a little more loose. Well, here's a space where you can kind of let it out, let it out, shake it out, talk about it, talk about like what do you need? Oh, I kind of need some reassurances. Maybe let me practice, right? Like I just watched the Michael Jackson movie, and the biggest thing that he talks about is practicing. If you're too nervous, maybe you didn't practice it, you know, like maybe maybe you didn't give enough time, like you're really bothered with this argument you had with your friend and you don't really quite understand it. Maybe there's some opportunity there to sit down with where it was coming from from you, or like how can you listen? Like, or maybe there's some curiosity there with your friend. Like what I always ask people, oh, I'm so I'm having this thing with this with my friend. And I'll start asking them questions, like, oh, like, what's been going on with your friend? What why do you think they've been so touchy?

The Question Every Man Eventually Faces: "How?"

SPEAKER_02 39:50

And a lot of times they'll be like, Oh, uh, I don't know. And I'm like, Yeah, because it sounds like you guys have always had these conversations, but right now they're really touchy. Why do you why do you think they're like maybe something's going on? And they're like, hmm, yeah, maybe I should ask that. And they come back to me, oh yeah, he's been slammed at work all day. So blah, blah, blah. Like there's just some curiosity opportunities there. And I think beyond the man box, we we we create that space to practice. Because sometimes guys are like, Well, I don't want to sound dumb. I don't really know how to say it, you know? Well, great, sound dumb with us. Do it here, do it here. Like, practice with us. We're not gonna judge you. So maybe when next time when you're talking to your wife or your girlfriend or your boyfriend, they'll be like, you know what? I kind of hashed this out and I think I know what to say now. And like Jason says, some guys don't have friends, some guys they don't know. Man, am I gonna call my friend and he's gonna think I'm lame because I've been crying all day? Well, lucky you, we just created a space for you with a bunch of dudes who are already in a place of saying, Hey, I actually would like some growth or I would like to focus on this, and you're in a room full of other dudes who would actually really love, probably a message of saying, Oh man, I did this thing we practiced in the workshop today, and I and it went really good, or it went really bad. Oh, I practiced this thing in our workshop, and I got the hard response. And you know, I've just been sad for five hours. It gives you a community to be like, hey, I know if I message this guy, he's gonna be receptive to this, he's not gonna judge me. So that's another thing we think is important.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

So is what I'm hearing you offer is really a community of practice?

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. I actually like how he said that.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

I always like to pull on threads and like see what the theme is here, and where we're landing is actually very exciting for me when I think about practice. Because if we just say go out and learn about your emotional intelligence or or grow your emotional intelligence or you know, emotional literacy, but how do I read a book? But you're saying actually be in the practice, getting the words out, feeling the feelings, feeling their rejection, processing through that in kind of this mock way. Practice makes so much sense to me. I fully wholeheartedly believe no Olympic champion does not have a coach, like you're saying, Jason, right? And so the older I get in my life, I want five coaches. I want, like for me, me as a human being,

Emotional Intelligence Is a Skill

SPEAKER_01 42:00

where's my human man coach? And so that that's more than their therapy, or that's more than being at the gym with that trainer. So as we close here, is there anything you all want to kind of wrap up and say about this practice? Like, what does that mean to practice being a man, right? Or being fully human is what I hear.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Yes, yeah, that's what it is. It's really practicing being fully human. And I just think that I love that men's circles exist because they give you like that brotherhood and that vulnerability and stuff. But the missing piece is the practice, it's a skill. Like empathy isn't just something that you're born with. Like some people may have more and more, or as kids, they have more opportunity to practice it. So they're better at it when they're adults. But at the end of the day, it is a skill that you can build, and it's a valuable skill. It is such a valuable skill. This is the kind of skill that, like, if you are on the verge of divorce, you can actually fix your marriage by having this skill and practicing this skill. If you are a CEO and you lost your star employee and had no idea they were thinking of leaving, and then now your business is suffering. Well, now this is a skill that you can practice on how to actually understand what is happening with your employees, how to have those conversations, how to read the room better. Like these are skills that you can practice. And I think men really need more help in practicing these skills.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

I agree with Jason and I do agree that that is our main offering. Like most of these men, a lot of things we're gonna teach them or show them, most know deep in their soul. Like most people know, oh yeah, I do. Yeah, of course I should love myself. But what does that actually look like when you practice it? Like, what does it look like to go and actually practice it then? Right. I always tell people, hey, when you read a book and you learned some skill, like, oh, I just read a book on how to juggle three balls. Do you know? Can you go do it now that you've learned it, can you go do it? The answer is a lot of times, no. So I tell people that too. You're gonna read this big self help book, this big self help book, and you're gonna finish it, and you'll be like, I've changed. I really resonated with it. I'm a changed man. And most of the times that's not the case because there's that missing practice element. There's that missing, oh, I have to grow this muscle now that I learned. Oh, wow. Look at this new way I can have a conversation with someone. Look at this new way I can listen. Look at this new way that I could engage or talk to someone. If you don't practice that new way that you just felt so inspired in that book, it's not going to happen. It almost won't matter. It'll just be a good story that you read. But without practice, it's just a good story. But with practice, it suddenly is actually growth. So, yes, beyond the man box, we're all about helping you put it into practice for you to actually get to the growth. Like we're not going to just show you the Ferrari and say, hey, wouldn't it be nice if you drove it? We're going to show you like what it actually takes to practice to like sit in that seat and drive it. Actually, we're not going to just show it to you and then be gone. It's the sense of practice and coming back and doing it again.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Yeah. Thank you so much for that. As an educator, I'm wholeheartedly with you. Like, knowledge does not equal application. And so giving those opportunities for that, the application and adoption of this new way of being or this new skill set. Empathy as a real skill, life skill, is very curious to me. How do you communicate that to men? I'm curious. Sell that, sell that to me. Sell empathy to me as a man.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Well, honestly, I don't really know how to sell empathy to you, and that's not what we do. We have like workbooks and we actually help people like identify the emotions that they're having. So they're having these like realizations, and then they're going back and they're looking at, oh, what are the masks that I've been wearing? Oh, whoa, what is that mask costing me? Whoa. Oh my God. And then we get to move into world plays and like, where does that cost me at work in my romantic relationships, in my friendships, in my family of origin dynamics with my kids? And then we learn about nervous system patterns. So really, it's more taking them through a journey than selling them like empathy skills. They're they're experiencing it as they're learning it. And that's why it works. And that's why people keep coming back.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

We like to tie empathy to the goal of relationing. Why am I empathetic? Why do I have to be so empathetic? Why do I have to be so understanding? Why do I have to practice self-love? If we could sell something, is the importance of a relationship. And whether that relationship is with yourself, with your best friend, your partner, your business partner, your employees, that relationship with a human who is impacting your life and who you impact their life, it's important. And that relationship can really determine how you feel about life in general, how well you can go to sleep, how well you wake up. What's so good about empathy? What's good about empathy is that it helps me, it helps me tend to the relationships I have. And it makes my life more beautiful in a world that's scary and unsure. So that's what we saw. What makes empathy so important? Oh, it makes it so I can have gooder, better relationships.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

And I'm hearing a more enriching life, a more calm life, a more fulfilled life. Thank you. I don't usually do that kind of thing. Like, pitch me, pitch me that. But I was just curious, yet the way you shared it was just like, wow, there's kind of a little epiphany for me around that skill set of being an empathetic man is a means a flourishing life.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Yeah, life is hard. And if you're not gonna have understanding with it, then the pursuit of life itself will be hard too.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

It's just so much.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

And also, I feel like I want to add to this also being able to see your blind spots. Because so many of us, I'll speak to men in particular. We know we keep getting into the same kind of relationship, we're having the same kind of breakup, or having the same kind of boss behind, or like repeating these patterns, right? 20, 50, 70 years. And if you can practice empathy, practice emotional intelligence, you could have empathy with yourself. You then want to learn more about yourself. You want to learn that desert, like you said, and then you want to learn about other people and have perspective on other people. One of the things that stands out the most to me is one of the guys that was in our last retreat, he was saying that he comes from a kind of more like a family that's a little bit more like aggressive, right? Like they just kind of say things, they say where they're at. His partner doesn't. She comes from a more kind of like passive aggressive family and stuff. So he would be saying things to her, and she would be like, whoa, I need you to be softer with me. And his thought was like, Oh, well, if I can just explain to you what I meant, you'll understand and it'll be fine, right? But it wasn't until he took our workshop and he was like, Oh, now I understand being more curious about her experience. And that was when he was able to be like, Oh, yeah, she grew up differently than me. So it's not just like what I'm saying or explaining what I meant to her, it's understanding the best way for her to receive my message. But like they were fighting about this for two years. It's a huge blind spot. And so that's really what we help with. That makes your relationship so much better, and all the relationships in your life so much better.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

Thank you so much. That is like just a beautiful point right there. Down to relationship. I'm so, so grateful for your time. Thank you for exploring this conversation with us, and my art is filled. I'm just really grateful or at passive crossed, and thank you for the work and the service that you're offering in the world. Thank you for making time.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Thanks for

A Community of Practice

SPEAKER_00 49:20

having me. You're awesome.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Thank you for joining this conversation. One thought that has stayed with me ever since we wrapped up our microphones is that healing isn't something you achieve, it's something you continually practice. Every one of us will experience disappointment, conflict, rejection, grief, and major life change. The question isn't whether these moments will come. The question is how will we meet them? Will we react in fear? Or will we respond with curiosity, compassion, and the willingness to keep growing? Jason and Mason reminded us that becoming more emotionally intelligent isn't about having all the answers. It's about showing up again and again and practicing honesty, practicing empathy, and practicing the kind of relationships that allow us to become more fully human. If today's conversation resonated with you, I encourage you to learn more about Beyond the Man Box. You'll find links and additional information about Jason and Mason in the show notes. The Men's Healing Network podcast is produced by Tom Kepler. Many thanks to Dean Ricas for her marketing and logistical support, and special thanks to the Choice Regional Health Network for making this podcast possible and for its ongoing commitment to expanding conversation around men's mental health, healing, and connection. If this episode spoke to you, consider sharing it with another man in your life. Sometimes the most meaningful invitation we can offer is simply hey, listen to this. I think you'll see yourself in it. Until next time, thank you for doing the courageous work of becoming more fully human. My name is Vincent Perez. Blessings to you and yours.