Episode 5: The Wisdom of the Wild

Episode 5: The Wisdom of the Wild

What if healing isn't something we achieve—but something we remember?

In this episode of the Men's Healing Network Podcast, Vincent Perez sits down with Elias Serras, co-founder of Grieving Man, and Darren Silver, founder of Great Earth School, for a conversation about men's work that reaches beyond self-improvement and into our relationship with nature, ritual, community, and belonging.

Building on our previous conversations with Grieving Man co-founders Brian Dwyer and Jordan Lyon, Elias and Darren explore why so many men feel disconnected from themselves and how ancient practices—from tending sacred fires to vision quests and rites of passage—can help us rediscover what it means to live with purpose.

Together, they discuss the role of ceremony in modern life, why initiation still matters, how relationships with the natural world shape our inner lives, and what it takes to build communities where men can truly belong.

Whether you've spent years immersed in men's work or are simply curious about why so many men are searching for something more, this conversation offers a thoughtful invitation to reconnect with the ancient conversation between our hearts, our souls, and the living world.

Show Notes

In this episode, Vincent welcomes Elias Serras, facilitator, guide, and co-founder of Grieving Man, alongside Darren Silver, rite-of-passage guide and founder of Great Earth School.

Together they explore what happens when healing is rooted not only in conversation, but also in ritual, wilderness, community, and relationship. Drawing from decades of experience facilitating men's gatherings, vision quests, and ceremonial spaces, Elias and Darren challenge modern assumptions about masculinity and offer a compelling vision for what healthy initiation and belonging can look like today.

In this episode, you'll learn about:

• Why nature creates conditions where healing can emerge naturally 
• The "ancient conversation" between our hearts, souls, and the wild 
• How ritual differs from self-help—and why it has endured across cultures 
• The importance of sacred spaces free from distraction and performance 
• Why initiation and rites of passage still matter for boys and men 
• The role of elders, mentorship, and community in healthy masculine development 
• What vision quests, sweat lodges, and ceremonial practices can teach us about purpose 
• How meaningful ritual helps us carry transformation into everyday life 
• Why belonging may be one of the deepest forms of healing 

Guests

Elias Serras is a facilitator and guide dedicated to empowering embodied belonging through truth, healing, and wholeness. He is a co-founder of Grieving Man, core facilitator for Manifest Gathering, and is working alongside Vincent Perez to found the Cascadia Men's Alliance.

Learn more: https://www.ecosomabe.com/

Darren Silver, M.A. is a rite-of-passage guide, nature-connected coach, ceremonialist, and founder of Great Earth School. For more than twenty years, he has guided transformational experiences rooted in wilderness living skills, mythology, ritual, and regenerative culture.

Learn more: https://www.darrensilver.earth/

Mentioned in this episode

• Grieving Man 
• Great Earth School 
• Manifest Gathering 
• Cascadia Men's Alliance 
• Vision Quests 
• Sweat Lodge traditions 
• Robert Bly 
• Men, Masculinities, and Earth: Contending with the (m)Anthropocene, edited by Mark Pulé and Martin Hultman

Connect with the Men's Healing Network

www.MHN.life

If this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who could benefit from it.

Hosted by: Vincent Perez
Produced by: Tom Keppeler
Marketing & Audience Development: Dee Enriquez
Funding Support: Choice Regional Health Network

Transcript

0:05

Welcome to the Men's Healing Network podcast. I'm your host, Vincent Perez. This is the show where we explore stories, practices, and conversations that are helping men heal, connect, and live more authentic lives. If you've been listening for a while, you may remember our conversation with Brian Dwyer and Jordan Lyon, two of the co-founders of Grieving Men. Today, we're returning to that community through another voice, one whose work bridges men's healing, nature, ritual, and belonging. Our first guest is Elia Serras, a facilitator, guide, and co-founder of Grieving Men. Elia has spent years supporting and working with men in communities across the country. He is helping people reconnect with themselves, each other, and the living world. Through his work with Manifest Gathering and the emerging Cascadia Men's Alliance, he creates space where truth, healing, and wholeness can take root. Joining him is Darren Silver, a rite of passage guide, ceremonialist, and founder of the Great Earth School. For more than two decades, Darren has led transformational experiences rooted in wilderness skills, storytelling, traditions, and the wisdom of the natural world, helping people discover their purpose, their vision, community, and a deep relationship with the Earth. In this conversation, we explore something many of us may have forgotten: that healing doesn't happen in isolation. It happens in relationship with one another, with the land beneath our feet, and with traditions that have helped human beings find meaning for generations. We talk about initiation, grief, the sacred fire, the stories that shape us, and why many men today are searching for something they can't quite name. Whether you've spent years on this path or you're simply curious about what men's work can look like beyond self-improvement, I think you'll find this conversation both grounding and inspiring. Here's my conversation with Elias Serras and Darren Silver.

Vincent Perez: 2:05

Welcome to the Men's Healing Network podcast. I'm so excited to have you with us today, Elias. In this journey of the Men's Healing Network, I've been able to meet so many who are in service, plugged in, have a heart for boys and men, and so grateful to have met you to collaborate with you. it's just been a real blessing. So I just wanna acknowledge that. But I wanna invite you first to speak about why did you invite Darren?. Elias: I'm so grateful to be on here, to know you too, and, deepen with you. When you said that in this podcast we'd be inviting another man, I really thought about it, and having done men's work for a dozen years, could think of a lot of different guys. Darren is one of my best buddies, and That's not why I invited him. That's just a bonus. You know, when I met Darren, it was actually through doing men's work and he was holding a sweat lodge at a big men's gathering outside of San Diego and tending a sacred fire. And our mutual friend who started this organization said, "You know, you two should really connect." And I went over there to the fire, and I noticed is, wow, there's a lot of cameras and phones out everywhere at this men's gathering, and I don't really like that. And as soon as I got to the fire that Darren was tending, there was no more cameras, there were no more phones. And I saw some guys walk up with their phones out, and Darren's like, "Get those out of here. This is ritual. This is ceremony over here." I ended up just finding a refuge there. And that was probably eight or nine years ago, s-seven or eight years ago. And since then, you know, I went on my first vision quest with Darren. I've worked with him in a number of settings. We just got back from a trip to Kentucky, where we were doing some facilitation there, and I'll be flying out to Colorado in a couple of days to facilitate with him, for another men's program. And, one reason I wanted to invite him is because when I was looking at men's work, I was asking this question of, where is the deep ecology in men's work? Where is the connection to Earth, and where is that being centered as part of being a healthy man? And so when I met Darren, I saw, okay, here's another brother who's really deep in that question and in the teaching of that. So that's the primary reason I wanted to invite him. Thank you so much. appreciate that connection, around the land around the sacredness of our convenings and gatherings, right? And so, with all that in mind and this idea of the invitation, I invite one, they invite another. I'm curious, Darren, for you, the big question we like to start out here with is, what is your understanding, your take, you know, your approach to men's healing?

Darren: 4:58

Thanks, Vincent. Yeah, first I just, thank you for doing this podcast, Vincent. It's, it's an honor to be here. This is the first time we've met in this medium and, and I just already just really enjoy your presence. So thank you for this, and Elias being so generous with your words, and inviting me into this. I, I remember that time around the fire well, and so thank you. There's a few things that come up for me around that question. One, when it comes to healing, I have been so influenced by ritual that my relationship to healing is a little bit like, dang, when I go towards it too, too intensely, the healing evades me. And so I think one thing about healing that's really important is, what is the context of which we create the possibility of healing to happen? A- another way to say it is like what is the altar that we make that creates the conditions for healing to want to happen? Healing, has become such a big industry unto itself that it can be co-opted in a way. and so I question that sometimes. Wait, what, creates the conditions that healing wants to happen? And how that's happened for me and my personal journey is first through my relationship with the land and nature, and secondly through ritual. And so to me, like I find men heal the most when they pick up this ancient conversation between their hearts and their souls in the wild. And to some degree, after a few days of immersion in the wild And this is a little brash of me to say, but I think, I think guys go, "Dang, I waste my time creating problems 'cause I'm not spending my time in the way that matters." All of a sudden it becomes a purpose-driven, and highly ecological, as Elias was talking about, driven life. And, you know, sometimes we create fires just so we can cycle through something to try to heal it over and over again, and that's what I mean by, like, the relationship with time. And something happens in the deep immersion with the wild that all of a sudden there's a sense of, I, I love this God that Robert Bly talks about. And the God goes by the name of Wait a Fucking Minute. And I love it because I… There's so many times in my life where I need to call upon that God of, "Wait a minute here. Wait a minute." And I think that that happens when men immerse themselves in the wild. All of a sudden a huge wait a minute happens. And healing can occur in the context, the altar of the wild. And then they decide what's important to tend.

Vincent Perez: 7:45

It's calm. There is something there about that sacred pause, the moment,

Darren: 7:49

Mm-hmm.

Vincent Perez: 7:50

I think especially in our contemporary world. I'm curious, Elia, what resonates with you or what do you take, where do you take that question?

Elias: 7:57

Hmm.

Vincent Perez: 7:57

What does men's healing mean to you?

Elias: 7:59

You know, when I first got into going to men's retreats, in short, it was because I realized that I was trying to work out a lot of things about being a man in relationship with women. And what I was terrified of, and I hear this story over and over again with men that are new to sitting in a men's circle, is like, "Wow, this is so scary. I don't wanna be around a bunch of men right now," for a variety of reasons, especially when it comes to are we gonna share vulnerably with other men? Are we gonna show emotion? Are we gonna show weakness, right? All these things that have been so stigmatized and taboo. And what happened pretty quickly for me in those early gatherings is like, wow, I start to see these guys' stories, no matter what their background is, no matter why they're in there, if it's addiction, if it's violence, if it's struggles, if it's depression. It's impossible not to fall in love with these guys.

Vincent Perez: 8:52

Hmm

Darren: 8:53

Hmm.

Elias: 8:54

The more I know somebody's story, the more-- the harder a time it's gonna be for me to think I'm that different from that guy right there and to, to put up those blocks and those separations and those judgments. So for me, part of the healing that can only happen in groups with people who are different that I get to start to fall in love with myself through other people. They give me permission by being themselves to knock down some of my layers of defense and judgment. And so, you know, healing can be a loaded word, and that's why you chose it, right? Is 'cause we can have these incredible conversations about it. But for me, there's a word right next to it, which is whole-ing.

Vincent Perez: 9:36

Hmm

Elias: 9:36

Like, we all contain multitudes, and so through offering love to others and receiving love from others and tending to the multiplicity, to the ecology of masculinity, we get to become more whole. And so that's what comes up for me. I say that also with a healthy dose of, of mystery. I don't really know what's happening, but something is happening.

Vincent Perez: 10:04

One of my, mentors, Amir, Khalighi says, Like, if there's a, a, a wound on our body, we don't actually do the healing, right? As you said there, there, there are conditions that are created. You clean it, you dress it, and time does its thing. We don't will the cells to heal. So, what I'm hearing is we're creating the conditions, socially, individually through connection, through connection with the land, through connection with ritual, through connection with each other, which are really just mirrors for connection with ourselves. And so I'm curious, Darren, for you over the last, sounds like you all have been at this for some time, for some years. What are those ingredients? You've named them kind of broadly, but is there anything more specific around, like, what the work actually is?

Darren: 10:53

I wanna like kinda unpack something real quick. Like I, I'm in love with the ancient, and I've always been this way, and there's like certain books that I come into contact with that, come from that place, and I'll like devour them. And then there's books that I have to like slog through, which are beautiful, beautiful books, but there's a certain quality of the ancient that I'm in love with. As Elias was talking, you were talking, I was like asking myself like, "Am I-- Is it bypassing something for me to be in love with the ancient and wanna bring men to that place?" And then you followed up with this question, and I think it's really important because in my experience of being in love w-with the ancient and then finding practices and skills and tools to be in relationship with that, what I encountered was, very much relevant to my own healing in modernity. It was just the mountain I was looking to was just a little bit further off into the distance than the modern landscape. So with that said, practical ways that I feel men can reduce the degrees of separation

Vincent Perez: 12:12

Hmm

Darren: 12:12

between them and the wild. What I've encountered is, distortions that live inside those degrees of separation that play out relationally, that play out with my own sense of identity, my own sense of self, and romantically, and then culturally. And so while they're deceptively simple, when a man makes a fire with, material that he carved himself and harvested himself off the land and creates smoke and then creates a coal and then drops it into a tinder bundle and blows it into a flame, I feel like it touches a part of us that awakens something, that is so nourishing and so powerful. Making fire by friction, making a shelter out of the local materials and spending a night or a week in it. There are so many things that happen inside of experiences that I think are really important for men. Where are my limits? Where are my blind spots? What truly am I capable of? On a physical level, you can go into the spiritual and throw somebody out into the forest without food for a couple days, and that's a whole nother testing. But like real practical, can you make fire? Can you make your own shelter? And then how does that influence our day-to-day activity and sense of self? So that's one angle, 'cause I started this off in, in conversations with the wild. I think there's so much empowerment that happens for men when those degrees of separation, are removed and we can get in direct dialogue with the primal, just like the business of life. Like really get in it. Like make fire, make an arrowhead, make a piece of pottery from clay that's from your land. I think it's incredibly powerful.

Vincent Perez: 14:07

There's a lot of action there. Like, it's, you're, there's a lot of doing. There's a lot with the hands.

Darren: 14:11

Mm-hmm.

Vincent Perez: 14:12

It's does not seem like stagnant when I think for some of the work, you gotta sit still, you gotta meditate, you gotta go inward. But this is actually being with the materials, the, I just to see it all, the bark, the twigs, the earth, the… Yeah, there's really something there about the active kind of element.

Darren: 14:31

Yeah. And can that active element be, an embodiment and physical manifestation of a prayer?

Vincent Perez: 14:37

Hmm.

Darren: 14:39

I didn't plan on this, but right next to my computer is a pine needle basket I made a couple years ago. This is all pine needles. I remember making this going like having all these different needles, is a lot like combing through the thoughts of my mind. If I drifted off for a second and thought about, dinner or whatever goes through my head randomly, then I made a mistake. So yeah, can our physical creations be a manifestation of our internal and of our prayer?

Vincent Perez: 15:11

Thank you. How about for you, Elias?

Darren: 15:13

Yeah

Vincent Perez: 15:13

is there, a balance of doing and, slowing down and pausing, or is the slow doing

Darren: 15:20

part

Vincent Perez: 15:20

of that? There's so many modalities, so many approaches. I'm curious, what have you found that's, there's no silver bullet, if you will. What have you found kind of bubble to the top?

Elias: 15:33

When I first started putting out this question of who's doing work at the intersection of deep ecology and masculinity, somehow I got looped into this sort of men's group, that was prototyping an offering on ecological masculinities. Two guys wrote a book, Mark Pule, I believe is one. One was from Australia, one was from Europe, and they were prototyping this group. And these were mostly guys who were older than me, like fifties and sixties. There's a guy in Colombia, several guys all over Europe, maybe one other guy in the US, and they invited me into this group. They're like, "Oh, cool, you're asking this question too. Like, how do we bring deep ecology into inquiries around men's work?" And I remember I was about to go on my vision quest with you, Darren. And before I left, I asked all these guys in the group, I'm like, "Can you guys tell me-- 'cause you're all uncles, you know. Can you tell me, uncles, like something that helped you know you became a man,

Vincent Perez: 16:32

Hmm

Elias: 16:32

And they were all kinda like-- They took it seriously. They were all thinking about it. And there was an Italian guy in Greece, and I'm, I'm Greek, so this was exciting to me. He'd been living there for seven years. He was sitting outside, and the olive trees that he'd been tending for seven years were behind him. And he said, "I knew I became a man when I was devoted to these trees, and some y- some seasons went by." And then the next guy goes in Colombia, and he brings us outside and shows us the trees that he's been tending, and the guy in California, and the guy in Canada. And, you know, I don't know that if I was to poll a bunch of men and say, "How important is that to your sense of being a man?" That they would go there immediately. But I think that there's something universal about that, tending to something over time as part of what it means to be a man, and that really struck, a chord in me. It's something that I aspire to do. And I don't think it's just about tending land or trees, it's also relationships over a long time. It's tending a vision, tending dreams, tending a project or an organization. There's doing in that, but it's a, it's a prayerful doing. It's a doing towards, in service to the life of something that you care about. And I have a question for you, Vincent, as well, if you're open

Vincent Perez: 17:59

Yeah,

Elias: 18:00

format-- Is your format

Vincent Perez: 18:01

beautiful. Let's do it

Elias: 18:03

Yeah, well, I mean, it strikes me that you two both work with, with lodge, with sweat lodge, and there's doing in that, but there's also a action of being cooked in that, and just-- I would just love to h-hear you guys riff on that a little bit. Like, Vincent, I know that you bring this into, juvenile detention center for many years now, and, what does that technology allow to have happen? What kinda conditions does that create for those young men that you're working with there?

Vincent Perez: 18:38

Ultimately, we hold circle right inside. It's pitch black. You know, all the metaphors are there that we offer, that I've been taught. You know, we're going into the womb of Mother Earth, into the darkness. And I've been reflecting on the seed and how it grows, its roots down into the darkness and its shoot up to the light. And it, it does both simultaneously, right? And the deeper it goes into the dark, the harder it is to be knocked over, right? Those, the strong roots are allowing it to seek that life to the light, to the sun. And so to me, there's a balance in that. There's a story in that. I, say just hands down, it is probably the most sacred thing I get to do in my existence. I think there's dance and movement, and there's so many other practices, but there's something about the fire and the water, these elements coming together at Latinoli, like this component of surrender. The young men share more in the lodge about the struggles that they face than any other space. And I get to create other space and have other ceremony, and we smudge, and we open to the seven directions, and there, there's lots of things we get to do, but there's something about the darkness that gives permission

Darren: 19:55

Mm-hmm.

Vincent Perez: 19:56

to reflect, to go inside, and to unearth and pull out the truth. And often it's very difficult truth, right? I mean, they're locked up. They're separated from their families. They're pining for that relationship. I mean, just really missing our loved ones and without access, right behind these bars, behind this barbed wire. And, it's, it's an honor. It is such a privilege. And I will name too that it was activists in the, adult system, Native activists who said, "This is our right. This is our spiritual right," that has allowed those policies to trickle down into the state juvenile, justice system, And this cerem- I've been there 12 years, and we've been holding this, once a month for 12 years. And so it is truly a gift. It is a gift for my existence and the, some of the most grounding practice I get to, get to be able to do. And I think I've read somewhere about boys and men and ritual, and it's really like the idea that it's really the only place we get to learn, like thoroughly in ritual. And there's… I'm questioning that. I'm curious about that statement or that belief or that practice that we need this, and not alone. Like it is deeply tied to community, deeply tied to, obviously Mother Earth, but each other in this practice, and given to us by our ancestors, That we know we're part of an ancient lineage, back to the time with the ancient. I'm curious for you, Darren, what is your experience then of the temazcal or sweat lodge?

Darren: 21:24

Yeah. Your, your story really is poignant and, and touches, an experience that happened just recently, for me in that my partner's son came to Colorado for his 15th birthday, and on his 15th birthday got to lodge, with me. I actually wasn't running that particular lodge and, he was sitting kinda next and behind me. and we came out and he was like,"Man, I don't, I don't know why, but the first round when they started singing, I just started crying. So all this stuff just came up. I just started crying. I was like, I couldn't… It just, it just all came up." And I was, I was sat with that question of like, what is that? Because my first lodge 21-ish years ago, same thing happened for me. I had no idea why I was crying, but I was crying in there. I mean, there was flashes and things, so yeah, really touched by you sharing your working with youth. There was a period of time in my mid-20s when I guided wilderness therapy. I was a field guide. And eventually I brought lodge into it, and I started pouring lodges. It wasn't, it wasn't even every month, may less frequently. But then when I stopped working there, they had me come in and run lodges, and I loved it. I loved it. It was like, I, I don't know - the mysterious encounter, that happens with them in there, but it happens. I'm really touched by you sharing that. I feel real connected to, to some of the work that you and the work you're up to. I think in my more like philosophical realm, I think there's something that boys were taught in becoming men, that they were given the instructions in how to participate in something bigger than themselves. we have pieces of that. We have scraps of that now, and, maybe there's whole systems somewhere. I, I haven't found it. I think that brings an enormous healing for men to belong to something bigger, but I do think boys more than girls need external, leadership, that need men to look up to. W-women I find are, are pretty darn capable, a-and less knuckleheads than us in the teenage years, you know? And, and so yeah, in ceremony and ritual, there's, there's a lot of eldering and, and mentoring and, and gosh, in those early years, I just felt just put in my place over and over and over again, and there was something healthy about that because it wasn't about punishment. It was, you know, when I first started fire keeping, it was like, "Sit down. Listen to the fire, kid." You know?"It's why you don't have any hair left on your knuckles, 'cause you're not listening." But it came with an intensity that shook me as a young man. But there was love behind it. There was, "Hey, here's the way to listen deeper." One of the etymological meanings of mystery actually translates to like to keep the mouth shut

Vincent Perez: 24:34

Hmm

Darren: 24:34

But I know in those younger years I was looking at these men and they had things that they weren't outright just gonna give away. That was the mystery. There was something that they were holding in and, that was so compelling to me. it was almost their silence and their awareness tracking me that touched something in me. Whoa, there's a way here, and they know it, . But they're not telling it to me yet. They're just telling me to chop another pile of wood, and I'm willing to chop that pile of wood to get closer to whatever it is they're in touch with. And I think young men to, to have elder men that, carry that sense of reverence and humility and containment i- in the mystery.

Vincent Perez: 25:15

There's a, a devotional way here, something greater than the self, the great mystery. I'm curious, Elias, 'cause we know some of the same folks. There's also something about drum song

Darren: 25:28

that

Vincent Perez: 25:29

is so powerful, right? Especially at lodge, when everyone's with one voice. And curious about the devotional practices, the way that connects us, Elia, that you have also found and practice and bring and invite men into

Elias: 25:44

You know, community singing, making sound, drumming together, this has become such a huge part of my life, and it, feels so ancient. It feels like a remembering, I think, for, for all of us because, it's been such a huge part of every intact culture and, and lineages: shared rhythms, shared songs, shared stories, the thing that makes us know that we're a people, right? And so There's this community here in the Northwest and, elsewhere too, but th-there's a real, like, real strength here of people who are song catchers. so th-they only take some ownership over the song. It's like, "I put up my antenna, this song came through, it's got a lesson for us, and it's meant to be sung by all of us in ritual." And we're just swimming in this, emergence of shared song, and there's nothing quicker to bring a group into cohesion and connection And much like sitting in a, in a sweat lodge or in a grief ritual, it's this place where my ego and my persona and my u-ungraceful bits and bobs, you know, they'll, they'll pop out, and it's obvious to everyone,

Vincent Perez: 27:00

Hmm.

Elias: 27:01

and then they get to, like, come back into coherence again.. Some of this stuff is caught, not taught. And it's like we just gotta get in the circle enough times that we start to catch the rhythms. I start to see that if I sing too loud, it's not helping anyone, least of all me, right? And, and that's different than saying,"I'm gonna be shamed and punished and hold onto something until it comes out sideways." But it's good to, have an elder be like, "Yeah, there's a reason you don't have any hair on your knuckles," a-and to offer that, that containment. And I, kinda wanna just offer a, a bridge here to like the violence that we see playing out by men in the world and what is-- the correlation there to the fact that most of those men, if not all of them, probably didn't get the chance to do their ungraceful dance in a circle like that and learn in a way others, right? How much of the violence we're seeing is a result of a lack of initiation and a lack of rites of passage? And I don't have the answer. I have this, hypothesis, right? That that's closer to the core of the problem here.

Vincent Perez: 28:15

Really appreciate you naming men's violence, which is ultimately why I do the work, as I look throughout history, many of our social ills are rooted in men's violence. Hard stop, we can point to them all. Who's making decisions about war right now? And so in our, in our homes, right? From our homes to nation states. But there's something here about how to really respond to that in the day-to-day. So you're both steeped in ritual, in, like, the going out to go in, the, journey, right? So what does that mean though in the day-to-day? So I, I get to have these profound experiences, they're influencing my life, but I still have to get up, to work, take care of my children, struggle with traffic, and just all of the daily things. How does the ritual translate into, my daily experience?

Darren: 29:05

you know, when I take people on, on wilderness programs, and we're just about to return, I often say like, "Hey, th-that was the easy part. Believe it or not, that was the easy part." it,, It is about the return, the return back and, and translating it into, the day-to-day.

Vincent Perez: 29:23

How about for you, Elia?

Elias: 29:25

since we started doing more men's work in the towns I live in, and I-- it's mostly been Bellingham and now the Peninsula, and some in Seattle, right? More and more dozens and hundreds of men have come through these, and these are guys who we know, who we run into at the grocery store, who we see at regular gatherings with the rest of the family, with other people present. And this thing has been happening over the last few years as there's been more men's gatherings and more intimacy between men who are in town and day-to-day life together I get regular calls or comments from women especially, from mothers especially, who notice an interaction between two men in a park. I mean, the last one was I got a message yesterday because I was out on a walk with Nico, who I also work with, and, we were in a deep conversation, and it happened to be a conversation about situation here, of violation our community. And w- and we're in this conversation about how do we, how do we respond as people who, who do men's work and are, are leaderful and also have a relationship with the man who is unsafe right now? Those kinds of conversations Nobody's getting paid for them, right? But they're essential and, and we're invested in them because we need to be, because this is a dress rehearsal for everything else that's gonna come. And so these, these women, this woman that left me a voice m-memo said, "I was on the beach yesterday. It was my birthday. I could tell you guys were talking about something of consequence, and it made me feel safe

Vincent Perez: 31:09

Mm-hmm.

Elias: 31:09

and grateful to be in this town." I've been at gatherings, one last year where there was a bunch of people from out of town, and a woman came up and said, don't know what you guys are up to up here, but I feel more safe letting my kids roam around than anywhere I've been in the last year because I've seen men hugging each other sincerely and deeply. I've seen gaggles of fathers taking care of all the kids and playing games." So there's something like, yes, we make-- maybe we have a threshold experience in a grief ritual or a men's retreat, and then it's really like, how do we talk to each other when we're in the park, in the grocery store? do we ask each other for support? That's a huge edge for me is, like, asking for and actually receiving support, and I think that that's a collective muscle that we're working right now as men.

Vincent Perez: 32:06

That's, that's a whole nother piece. What were your reflections, Darren?

Darren: 32:10

There's something to say about ritualizing difficulty and that I think can touch and temper that place in men, to test their strength. There's a Rilke poem about being defeated by something greater than ourselves. I mean, there's so many times that I've, I just feel like, I've gone into ceremony with a growl, just a growl of anger and discontent and bitterment. and if I find it, which I don't always do, if, if I open up enough, it usually results in me with my forehead on the ground crying, weeping. And so there's something about that, anger and that rage and e-even that violence inside getting tempered, and being met with something greater and more people than just myself as Elias and you have been highlighting. And, I think it, it being ritualized does something. And there's… I remember a friend long time ago, she brought this up to me. She said, "You know," Back in the day, I used to party and, drink." This is her sharing."And I would have a really great time and feel shitty the day after. And then I got into ritual, and it was really hard in the ritual, but I felt really wonderful after."

Vincent Perez: 33:27

Hmm.

Darren: 33:28

There's something about ritualizing that intensity so that in our everyday we're free of that. Not free of it, but, there's a place for that to be expressed.

Vincent Perez: 33:38

And a practice

Darren: 33:39

Yeah

Vincent Perez: 33:40

Getting ready for the big game. That's what I feel like, 'cause I just recently wrote a piece where, like, hardship is gonna come. You will be wounded. We're gonna have loss, we're gonna have grief, we're gonna have heartbreak. And so how do I practice to meet all of those emotions, those states of being that can feel overwhelming, that can lead me to rage, right? How do I actually be with it? And so I think that's… There's an element there of, well, we gotta do that, that hard stuff in ritual so we can be ready for the hard stuff in every day

Darren: 34:08

Exactly.

Elias: 34:09

I think we have a responsibility as people who hold what can be intensity, intense containers, what can also become an addictive thing, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I and many others that I have seen throughout the years, they'll go to a men's retreat, and they get a taste of something really beautiful, and then instead of actually bringing it into their day-to-day lives, they just keep going back for more. And I think we've all talked about this, but I've learned that at every offering I do, this is something we have to talk about for a guy who comes in and says, "Oh, this is the answer," and that's all they wanna do. They just wanna go to more and more retreats. Well, that's just chasing a different kind of high or a different kind of addiction. And so I don't have the answer, except that it's an important thing to, to talk about and disclose

Vincent Perez: 34:57

I was invited into a ceremony, with medicine And he said, "You're not, you're not gonna be back for a few years. You have to integrate this over a few years, a period of time." And immediately after, I think I was feeling that what you're saying, Elias, of just like, "Wow, there's something there. There's an opening. It cracked me. How do I get more of that?" It was like, no, let the lesson you know, like ferment. You know? Like let it, let it… It's gotta do its thing.

Darren: 35:21

Mm-hmm.

Vincent Perez: 35:21

That was six years ago. I'm almost ready to go back, I think. I'm curious, as we begin to wrap up here, is there, is there anything you think that, uh, our audience, would be remiss not to hear? Is there anything that's sitting with you that is important to communicate?

Darren: 35:38

I've, for better or for worse, chewed on this question about initiation for quite some time, and at some point in the journey, I asked myself, well, what are we being initiated into?"

Vincent Perez: 35:50

Hmm

Darren: 35:51

And in my studies of intact cultures, it was very clear what one was being initiated into. I remember I was guiding, teenagers in Africa at one point, and, a gang of young Maasai men came through our camp, and they were selling, herbal mixtures and stuff like that, and I was like,"Hey, guys, can I talk to you about your initiations for a little while?" And they were so open, , about it, and they, they shared some of the pieces. All of them opened up their mouth and showed the tooth that got knocked out in one of their ceremonies and when I think about, the modern boy or the modern man, it may not be that clear what we're being initiated into. I'm often left with the question of like, what does a viable culture look like of which we can initiate, the boys into, or men? Can we be intentional about that question if a lot of these days is, the initiation is like, "Wow, I, I'm just being initiated into standing into my own shoes." What more can we do from there? What more can we initiate into something greater? Yeah, that, that's a question. I don't have any answers, that's something I've, been courted-- courting and been courted by, I think, for many years now of like, what's that common thread? and I have reason to believe that men being initiated into their culture, was the business of keeping-- of perpetuation of life, not necessarily of our own species. But in intact cultures, boys were being initiated into a culture that was focused around the perpetuation of life as a whole. And what does it look like for us to now, engage more in perpetuation as life as a whole?

Vincent Perez: 37:36

Mm.

Darren: 37:37

Yes, it's important to start here, which is, which is an ongoing occupation, for me at least. And how can it be about the perpetuation of life? Yeah. I sit with that question a lot. Mm-hmm

Elias: 37:54

I'm transported to the top of the mountain where I did that, wilderness fast, that Darren was down at the, prayer fire. I think the elders who live on the land were coming through there and had that fire burning for, for those days. And when I was up there, you know, I had been visited, many times at this point by this being. That's how it occurred to me, this, this little girl who was, like, courting me as a potential parent. And what that did to my consciousness, whether-- however much of that was soulful or imaginative or, or real, it doesn't really matter, because what that did to my perspective is it had me with the question of what would I want to bring a little girl into? And what could I do in my life to help make that so?- One of the things that I'm sitting with, and it's, in part by being around elders and old people. I've, I've made it my job to hang out with people who are closer to death than me, these last few years. And when I get to hear them, what I'm hearing them say is, that I don't get to see the fruits of my labor, and that's okay. That what I'm working towards It's not like I put in ten years of work and suddenly I'm, I'm living in, paradise, right? Or , all the ills of the system are gone. It's like, I think having a kid or imagining being an uncle, imagining being a mentor, imagining future generations who aren't here yet, of blood and otherwise, and can I be in service to what they're gonna inherit? that's a big perspective shift from like, "Okay, I'm on my five-year plan. I'm gonna make as much money as possible and get a beautiful property and the white picket fence," or whatever the, the American dream, quote-unquote, is that maybe my grandfathers came over with to escape the conditions that they were in. But the, the frame is changing now, there's a lot of mystery on the other side. Like, I don't know what I'm working towards, but I know it's, worthwhile. I know it's beautiful, and I have to, like, temper my own ego and expectations to keep showing up in service to something that I may never see the fruits of.

Vincent Perez: 40:06

Team breath on that one. Wow. Am I in service to what they will inherit? There's something really powerful there

Darren: 40:17

Mm-hmm.

Vincent Perez: 40:17

What a soulful conversation. I'm so grateful, y'all. What a honor, what a blessing. Thank you for making this time. Thank you for engaging, with such authenticity.

Elias: 40:29

Yeah, it was really fun to be with you. I mean, this was, for me, it was a good excuse just to get you guys in a room together.

Vincent Perez: 40:35

Right on

Darren: 40:37

Yeah.

Elias: 40:38

it,

Darren: 40:38

Yeah. Thanks Vi-Vincent.

Vincent Perez: 40:40

That's the beauty of this work is making these connections. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the "Men's Healing Network" podcast. Conversations like this remind me that healing isn't about fixing what's broken. It's about remembering who we are through community, through relationship, through our grief, and through our connection to the living world. If something in today's conversation with Elias and Darren resonated with you, don't let it end here. Share this episode with somebody you care about. Start a conversation with a friend. Find a circle near you where you can share honestly. Healing doesn't happen all at once. It rarely happens in isolation. And if you'd like to learn more about the Men's Healing Network, explore upcoming events, or find resources to support your journey, visit mhn.life. And be sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And if you enjoyed today's episode, we'd be grateful if you'd leave us a review. It helps more men and the people who love them discover these conversations. This episode was produced by Tom Keppeler with marketing and audience development by Dee Enriquez. The Men's Healing Network podcast is made possible through funding support from the Choice Regional Health Network, whose commitment to improving the health and wellbeing of our communities helps bring these conversations to life. Until next time, remember that healing isn't a destination, it's a practice. Keep showing up, keep asking the hard questions, and keep walking the path. Please take care of yourselves and your loved ones. We'll see you at the next episode. My name is Vincent Perez. Many blessings to you and yours